Marijuana debate

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Re: Weird health problem

Post by |darc| »

JellyWarrior wrote:LizzyCamizzy I am really sorry to hear about your friend and thanks for sticking up for me.
It's annoying that someone puts his own wrong opinion before another person's health.
It's also annoying that someone puts their own agenda before someone's health.

By the way, there's no such thing as a "wrong opinion."
JellyWarrior wrote:Btw, I have no interest in participating in a "marajuana debate" topic, I've said what I needed to say and people should educate themselves on the risks from a reliable source (not someone who is biased either for or against).

Education lets you know about the risks and gives you an idea about what to do in the event that you see someone having a bad reaction to it.
Having no interest in a debate topic sure sounds a hell of a lot more like "I will just accept what the media says about marijuana and not give it a second thought" than educating oneself.

You won't get an unbiased source on marijuana. It just won't happen. I have used it myself a few times, enjoyed it, and I know plenty of people who have used it many times or nearly habitually and have never had a problem. I don't buy that it's a satanic drug and that it will make me want to sleep with black people.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by Ex-Cyber »

Acetaminophen, a drug for which a lethal OD is easy to achieve (to the point that some people do it accidentally), is not only legal but readily available over-the-counter in large amounts.

Caffeine, a drug which has a well-known physiological addiction mechanism and is known to cause psychotic episodes in large doses (with widely available dose sizes increasing as "energy drinks" gain popularity), is not even regulated as a drug, but rather as a "generally recognized as safe" food ingredient.

Yet marijuana is illegal for any purpose, even with a prescription. Even to the extent that arguments against marijuana are based on sound evidence and principles, there's clearly still a double standard operating here.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by butters »

I personally think if alcohol is legal, marijuana should be as well. At least that would allow the government to tax the drug and keep us from sending large amounts of money to psychos in South America.

What I'm afraid of is the amount that DUIs would increase. Can't be bothered to look it up right now, but doesn't marijuana inhibit reaction times terribly?
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by LizzyCamizzy »

butters wrote:I personally think if alcohol is legal, marijuana should be as well. At least that would allow the government to tax the drug and keep us from sending large amounts of money to psychos in South America.

What I'm afraid of is the amount that DUIs would increase. Can't be bothered to look it up right now, but doesn't marijuana inhibit reaction times terribly?
Like really really badly... ya' slow waaaaaaaaaaaaay down
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by LizzyCamizzy »

jaredfogle wrote: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hem ... tomj1.html

Or google "marijuana tax 1937 mexican." There are a lot that say the same.

Marijuana was actually briefly legal in the US in the 1960s when Timothy Leary contested the the 1937 Tax Act as unconstitutional. We're not supposed to ever have to turn ourselves in, but one basically had to do so to comply with the Tax Act. You had to go to the government and tell them that you had an illegal drug to get the stamps. They tried to get Leary on it and he busted the shit all up. Of course it was quickly replaced by some other law that was technically constitutional.

Anti-marijuana sentiment was used to socially ostricize a lot of young, radical-leaning young people in the 1960s. Again, the motivations are political, not concern for our health.

We've actually got a new law here in TN called the Crack Tax that is just as unconstitutional. It is actually being enforced, I think. I've not seen any official reports, but I heard that this is the standard new method of enforcement at festivals I've attended. Instead of having to process you, arrest you, etc. they will simply make you pay a 100% tax (and cops notoriously overvalue dope) and take your stuff. Easier for them and it almost seems like they're giving you a break by not arresting you.

Also, a lot of black folks smoke reefer. I think its prohibition leads to a lot of undeserving young and old black people getting imprisioned or put on probation. Probation can really be a bitch when paying rent is difficult on its own.
Thanks, I'll have to look into this a bit- really interesting! I'll get back to this more in depth but I wanted to drop a note letting you know that the Crack Tax is being enforced down here in Chattanooga. It's an easy out for a city with not nearly enough cops for patrolling. (Seriously, Chattanooga is in severe police underload. They don't even deal with the civil crimes b/c of it).
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by Covar »

jaredfogle wrote:Also, a lot of black folks smoke reefer. I think its prohibition leads to a lot of undeserving young and old black people getting imprisioned or put on probation. Probation can really be a bitch when paying rent is difficult on its own.
call me crazy, but if you're having trouble paying rent in the first place you probably shouldn't be wasting your money on unessentials.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by Wagh »

What is so evil about pot smoking? I've been a daily smoker for the past couple years now. I'm in college majoring in geology. I do my homework. I travel the U.S. I enjoy it and it helps me to relax after doing homework for 5 hours every morning.

Now, is pot for everyone? No. I have a friend who just doesn't like it. She doesn't enjoy being high. So you know what she does? She doesn't smoke it. I have seen people have severe reactions to smoking weed. However they were taking poweful anti epiliptic seizure medicine when they had. Their choice but one they wont be making again.

A spliff can be a lot of things. A party starter, a party ender, a relaxing evening watching a movie, playing video games with friends, sitting outside and enjoying the earth we get the chance to live on. Do you have to be high to enjoy these things? No, but man its pretty nice. Being high doesn't make you stupid. It's continually smoking pot when you know you have things to do, that makes you an idiot.
LizzyCamizzy wrote:Hey Jelly- totally agree with you. I have worked within the court system for years dealing with domestic issues.
Care to expand how your work with the court system proves weed is evil?
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by jaredfogle »

Covar wrote:
jaredfogle wrote:Also, a lot of black folks smoke reefer. I think its prohibition leads to a lot of undeserving young and old black people getting imprisioned or put on probation. Probation can really be a bitch when paying rent is difficult on its own.
call me crazy, but if you're having trouble paying rent in the first place you probably shouldn't be wasting your money on unessentials.
Like probation fees?

I'm talking about the real world here. Poor people get high.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by |darc| »

butters wrote:What I'm afraid of is the amount that DUIs would increase. Can't be bothered to look it up right now, but doesn't marijuana inhibit reaction times terribly?
Marijuana does impair your driving abilities, but not as much as alcohol does. How many times have you heard of people dying from car accidents while someone was high on pot? I'm not defending doing it and the amount of high drivers causing accidents would probably increase were it legalized, but I just think this issue depends on how marijuana is abused. If some people who drink and drive turn away from alcohol to marijuana and smoke and drive, I think it's better. But I think marijuana has a higher potential to create people who smoke habitually than alcohol to create people who drink habitually. Overall, though, I don't think high driving will be a big issue, were marijuana to be legalized.
Covar wrote:
jaredfogle wrote:Also, a lot of black folks smoke reefer. I think its prohibition leads to a lot of undeserving young and old black people getting imprisioned or put on probation. Probation can really be a bitch when paying rent is difficult on its own.
call me crazy, but if you're having trouble paying rent in the first place you probably shouldn't be wasting your money on unessentials.
Pot really isn't that expensive and it's easy to grow yourself.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by LizzyCamizzy »

Whoa guys, I never said it was evil. Evil doesn't exist in my religious beliefs. :) Therefore, the question is null- maybe rephrase your question? Otherwise I'm not sure how to answer.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by LizzyCamizzy »

Okay, so to jump into the psychosis.... the plant technically is cannabis. Okay, so the brain makes this chemical already. (Didn't know that, eh?) So why would it be bad to put something in ourselves that we already make? Under frequent use, cannabis can worsen schizophrenia. (assuming this condition has been detected, which more often than not isn't diagnosed) This is in the Queensland Department of Health (Dr. J. McGraph). Chronic use, in the same studies performed by Dr. McGraph shows that the suicide rate of those who use it increase by 10%. Christie and Chesher (1994, p. 214) recognised that " '...Andréasson et. al.'s suggestion to the effect that cannabis use is a stressor capable of triggering the psychotic breakdown, is an aspect that requires considerably more exploration' " (1994, p. 214). Of course, as we all know, more exploration did occur. Many of these statistics are still being reviewed and studied and are not released yet. I haven't really looked beyond 1996.

Furthermore, "In light of the increased potency of dimethylheptyl analogs of 9-THC (Schuchard, 1992, p. 1; Wu, 1988; Stamler, 1985) it would be very unwise to think that cannabis does not play an important part in some suicide and schizophrenia (U.S. Congress, House Committee on Government Operations, 1983; Russell, 1977; Gruber, 1994)." (Herschel Mills Baker) "... the odds of developing schizophrenia increase in a linear fashion along frequency of use; both among subjects with a psychiatric diagnosis and in those without detectable disorders." "...community samples have found the lifetime prevalence of cannabis use to be significantly higher among schizophrenics than in comparison groups, including individuals suffering from other psychiatric disorders." (Negrete, 1989, p. 350).

So, we have schizophrenics use it more, and the more you use it, the more likely you will become schizophrenic. It also amplifies undetected and detected psychological problems, as can be seen in the above studies.

Also, on a less skitzo point: "Smoking marijuana may impair the body's immune system by preventing complete development of certain white blood cells. This may cause the immune system to function less effectively, making marijuana users more susceptible to disease." (Huberman, 1989, p. 1)

I'm not saying, in having the point above, that smoking pot is contracting AIDS. That's a strong assumption I'm sure would be taken, so please don't take that assumption. It's saying you're more likely to get sick and your immune system less effective.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by jaredfogle »

LizzyCamizzy wrote:Okay, so to jump into the psychosis.... the plant technically is cannabis. Okay, so the brain makes this chemical already. (Didn't know that, eh?) So why would it be bad to put something in ourselves that we already make? Under frequent use, cannabis can worsen schizophrenia. (assuming this condition has been detected, which more often than not isn't diagnosed) This is in the Queensland Department of Health (Dr. J. McGraph). Chronic use, in the same studies performed by Dr. McGraph shows that the suicide rate of those who use it increase by 10%. Christie and Chesher (1994, p. 214) recognised that " '...Andréasson et. al.'s suggestion to the effect that cannabis use is a stressor capable of triggering the psychotic breakdown, is an aspect that requires considerably more exploration' " (1994, p. 214). Of course, as we all know, more exploration did occur. Many of these statistics are still being reviewed and studied and are not released yet. I haven't really looked beyond 1996.

Furthermore, "In light of the increased potency of dimethylheptyl analogs of 9-THC (Schuchard, 1992, p. 1; Wu, 1988; Stamler, 1985) it would be very unwise to think that cannabis does not play an important part in some suicide and schizophrenia (U.S. Congress, House Committee on Government Operations, 1983; Russell, 1977; Gruber, 1994)." (Herschel Mills Baker) "... the odds of developing schizophrenia increase in a linear fashion along frequency of use; both among subjects with a psychiatric diagnosis and in those without detectable disorders." "...community samples have found the lifetime prevalence of cannabis use to be significantly higher among schizophrenics than in comparison groups, including individuals suffering from other psychiatric disorders." (Negrete, 1989, p. 350).

So, we have schizophrenics use it more, and the more you use it, the more likely you will become schizophrenic. It also amplifies undetected and detected psychological problems, as can be seen in the above studies.

Also, on a less skitzo point: "Smoking marijuana may impair the body's immune system by preventing complete development of certain white blood cells. This may cause the immune system to function less effectively, making marijuana users more susceptible to disease." (Huberman, 1989, p. 1)

I'm not saying, in having the point above, that smoking pot is contracting AIDS. That's a strong assumption I'm sure would be taken, so please don't take that assumption. It's saying you're more likely to get sick and your immune system less effective.
You've probably got enough first hand data for this to work:

How many marijuana users do you know? How many schizophrenics do you know?

You probably know many more of the former.


Also, why do people who smoke lots of marijuana their entire lives not tend to dvelop schizophrenia? If there is causation, smoking enough reefer will make any person schizophrenic, right?

Marijuana might exasterbate certain mental illnesses. So does a job. So does a car payment. People who are schizophrenic or schizophrenic-bound are going to have rough times whether its reefer anxiety or occupational axiety.

And a more reasonable act than prohibition of something that is dangerous to less than 1% of the population is contraindication. Pregnant women shouldn't drink. Schizophrenics shouldn't smoke reefer. Print that on the box, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by LizzyCamizzy »

That stance would say, essentially, that rape isn't as bad as murder and she was asking for it anyway b/c she wore a low cut shirt.

Too much paranoia IMO, which I don't think our discussion is about paranoia. Don't want raped? Don't show cleavage. Don't want fetal issues with your unborn baby? Don't do drugs. Don't want to be in a car accident? Don't drive. Don't like pot? Don't do it. Don't agree with it? Don't do it. Don't want a promotion? Don't strive for success. Don't want a big mac? Don't go to McDonalds. Most the previous arguments have been neutralizing logic. I'd love something with substance to bounce off of. A good debate doesn't work against logic, it works with logic, on both sides.

Calling a point of view evil, or saying it doesn't exist, doesn't promote educated debate. These are opinions, not facts- give me substance! Persuasive arguments aren't at all attacking or on the offensive. Please don't flame me just b/c I am providing backing to what I say, rather than relying solely on he-said-she-said. If you want to change someone's opinion, you can't essentially say "YOU ARE WRONG. I am right. All my friends tell me so and I agree with them."

If you want to change my opinion, I'm giving the opportunity. BUT, ya'll will have to try a bit harder. ;) So far, I'm primarily seeing opportunities to flame someone purely for having an opinion that isn't popular around here. Occaisionally something with substance comes up, which I really appreciate and enjoy. If I'm the only one here that has an opposing opinion, don't you think you should be a bit more persuasive than aggressive? Ya' lead more bees to honey after all!

So, long post to say: Give me facts. Don't flame me b/c I don't agree. I'm open to changing opinion, but I'm not seeing valid enough arguments to do so yet.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by bizzle »

Way too much to read so I'll just chime in with my opinion.

Okay, what's the big deal here, people? If you don't like it, don't do it. End of story. There are a lot more important things to concern yourself with.

Personally I think all substances should be legal. I don't believe it should be the governments decision with what I can and can not put in and do with my body.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by jaredfogle »

LizzyCamizzy wrote:That stance would say, essentially, that rape isn't as bad as murder and she was asking for it anyway b/c she wore a low cut shirt.
Are you talking about my post?

Let me clarify. Schizophrenics are fucked up people. They're going to have a fucked up time if they get really high. They're also going to have a fucked up time choosing which clerk hates them the least at the grocery store check out. They have a hard time with everything.

And come on, Lizzy. I'm not flaming you here, but what's with the Bill O'Reilly stuff? You know that we are talking about adults choosing to ingest a drug. Even if marijuana were particularly harmful, an adult choosing to use it does not belong anywhere in the same realm of ethical consideration as extreme violence inflicted on another person.

You're trying to muddy up the swimming hole. If you have relevant contributions, please share them.


And bizzle--you're right. But the fact remains that it is illegal and that the public still supports this status to some degree. Therefore, this sort of discussion is healthy (even if we're just lobbing water balloons at each other's brick walls--it is important that we try).
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by LizzyCamizzy »

Who is Bill O'Reilly?

Taking in illegal substance is extreme violence- to yourself. Shouldn't you be concerned about yourself just as much if not more than others?
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by LizzyCamizzy »

I suppose I don't have relevent contributions. I'll drop out of this one.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by bizzle »

LizzyCamizzy wrote:Who is Bill O'Reilly?

Taking in illegal substance is extreme violence- to yourself. Shouldn't you be concerned about yourself just as much if not more than others?
Not really.
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by LizzyCamizzy »

bizzle wrote:
LizzyCamizzy wrote:Who is Bill O'Reilly?

Taking in illegal substance is extreme violence- to yourself. Shouldn't you be concerned about yourself just as much if not more than others?
Not really.
maybe that's what all this comes down to, encapsulated in bizzle's answer...
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Re: Marijuana debate

Post by bizzle »

LizzyCamizzy wrote:
bizzle wrote:
LizzyCamizzy wrote:Who is Bill O'Reilly?

Taking in illegal substance is extreme violence- to yourself. Shouldn't you be concerned about yourself just as much if not more than others?
Not really.
maybe that's what all this comes down to, encapsulated in bizzle's answer...
But it's true.
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