Those Cartoons of the Prophet...

[Ex-Cyber]

The concept that Islam may be a violent religion at its very core

What does this even mean?

the religion they follow may not be so inherrently peaceful

I am of the opinion that it's not "inherently peaceful", at least not in any way that really matters. I hold the same opinion of Christianity, Judaism, and in fact most other religions.

[Specially Cork]

The thing is, no matter how much you try and promote multiculturalism, and how much you try and make faiths understand each other, the majority of major religions (but not all) have a core element that they are right and everybody else is wrong, and when you have so many people blindly believing that fact, its going to cause problems.

Most multicultural societies are on a very delicate balance. The belief is that all cultures can get on fine when we understand one another, but this isnt happening, everybody is just trying to avoid confrontation with one another instead. Which is why everything works fine until one culture makes a tiny stab at another (such as this cartoon) and suddenly all hell breaks lose.

Trying to mix cultures together is like putting two boxers in a ring together and watching them pace around each other waiting to see who will throw the first punch. Everything is calm, until that punch is thrown, and then youve got a full fight on your hands. Its happening now with this cartoon, its happened throughout history, and itll certainly happen again and again.

[jaredfogle]

I think getting over all this God business is the next big, positive step for humanity.

I'm not exactly sure where or why it all came about, but come on folks. Let's grow up a bit.

[Roofus]

The Muslim world has been spiritually and emotionally raped by the people of Denmark. The only recourse is for Denmark to turn all the employees over to the Muslims and allow them to do what they will to the employees. Only then will the healing truly begin.

[pixel]

I think getting over all this God business is the next big, positive step for humanity.

I'm not exactly sure where or why it all came about, but come on folks. Let's grow up a bit.

People will still have differing opinions. Arguing over the exact points of their beliefs is going to get you nowhere. You're only scooping water out of a sinking boat without noticing the hole.

[not just souLLy now]

The concept that Islam may be a violent religion at its very core

What does this even mean?

the religion they follow may not be so inherrently peaceful

I am of the opinion that it's not "inherently peaceful", at least not in any way that really matters. I hold the same opinion of Christianity, Judaism, and in fact most other religions.

what i mean is, the core standards at the heart of islam are not cohesive with a peaceful society. I can see why you would have issue with what I've said. I've criticised a belief system and you as a onlooker automatically assume i must be prejudiced and dislike brown people- because come on now all religions are peaceful, it's one of their characteristics, people always say that they are.

Why is this the case for Islam? what evidence do you have that it's the same as any other religion in that sense? the muslims who are peaceful perhaps? what makes you think that they are the ones who are correctly interpreting the quran?

Mohammed killed hundreds of people in his lifetime and urges muslims to do the same, read his biography. The treatment of women in muslim society is frightening:

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

"O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense."

"The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "I saw paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked: "O Allah?s Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds."

[Lartrak]

The concept that Islam may be a violent religion at its very core

What does this even mean?

the religion they follow may not be so inherrently peaceful

I am of the opinion that it's not "inherently peaceful", at least not in any way that really matters. I hold the same opinion of Christianity, Judaism, and in fact most other religions.

what i mean is, the core standards at the heart of islam are not cohesive with a peaceful society. I can see why you would have issue with what I've said. I've criticised a belief system and you as a onlooker automatically assume i must be prejudiced and dislike brown people- because come on now all religions are peaceful, it's one of their characteristics, people always say that they are.

Why is this the case for Islam? what evidence do you have that it's the same as any other religion in that sense? the muslims who are peaceful perhaps? what makes you think that they are the ones who are correctly interpreting the quran?

Mohammed killed hundreds of people in his lifetime and urges muslims to do the same, read his biography. The treatment of women in muslim society is frightening:

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

"O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense."

"The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "I saw paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked: "O Allah?s Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds."

Never read the Old Testament, I take it?

[Ex-Cyber]

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

[Hawq]

Protester is returned to prison
A demonstrator who imitated a suicide bomber in a Muslim protest over cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad has been recalled to prison.
Omar Khayam, 22, of Bedford, is a convicted drug dealer who was jailed in 2002 and released on licence last year after serving half his sentence.

He was arrested and recalled to prison for breaching the terms of his licence.

Khayam apologised for his "insensitive" protest on Monday but said he had been offended by the cartoons.

A Bedfordshire Police spokesman said Khayam was arrested under the Criminal Justice Act 2003 at the request of the Home Office.

He was given five and a half years in prison in December 2002 for dealing cocaine and heroin.

Khayam apologised to those affected by the 7 July bombs, saying his protest was as "insensitive" as the cartoons.

One down, many more to go. Incidently as a drug dealer what was he taking offense for exactly? the koran says drugs are the work of Satan & drug users & dealers will burn in hell so he obviously wasnt doin it in protest at an insulted religion. source

[mikozero]

self-righteousness
one of the great purposes of 'having religion'

[jaredfogle]

Richard Stallman, a cat whose political views I oft align with, called the Danish Newspaper's apology shameful, praised newspapers world-wide who reprinted the cartoons, and said this of the whole silly mess:

I am an ACLU member, and I defend the right of even Nazis and neo-cons to express their pernicious views. Believers in Islam, and critics of Islam, also have right to express their views. Nobody, not Mohammed, not even Bush, has the right not to be mocked.

[Lartrak]

Richard Stallman, a cat whose political views I oft align with, called the Danish Newspaper's apology shameful, praised newspapers world-wide who reprinted the cartoons, and said this of the whole silly mess:

I am an ACLU member, and I defend the right of even Nazis and neo-cons to express their pernicious views. Believers in Islam, and critics of Islam, also have right to express their views. Nobody, not Mohammed, not even Bush, has the right not to be mocked.

I agree. But, man, political cartoons are ****ing stupid. They accomplish nothing, they're never funny, they don't try to persuade, all they do is reinforce existing stereotypes of politics and reinforce the beliefs of those who already align themselves with the cartoonist.

[Ex-Cyber]

Richard Stallman, a cat whose political views I oft align with

Some of Stallman's political writings are really good. He seems to get way too much of his information from uruknet though.

I agree. But, man, political cartoons are ****ing stupid. They accomplish nothing, they're never funny, they don't try to persuade, all they do is reinforce existing stereotypes of politics and reinforce the beliefs of those who already align themselves with the cartoonist.

Political cartoons are occasionally funny, and a few do try to persuade. But yeah, the vast majority is crap. In particular, I think there's too much insider humor (e.g. symbolizing Tom DeLay as a hammer, in reference to a nickname that I've never heard in general public discourse), and too many cartoonists do painfully obvious jokes or themes (I lost count of the number of times I saw Christopher Reeve flying Superman-style out of his wheelchair to heaven, for instance).

[mikozero]

while praise of free speech is admirable, so is responsible journalism.

i try to catch a program on BBC News 24 as much as possible called Dateline London, this prog gathers together the London correspondents from the major big name international newspapers for a round table discussion on current events to express there own views on the issues. the program is often very interesting and makes for stimulating intellectual current affairs viewing (i recommend it to any UK member who likes that kinda thing)

The New York Times correspondent, when asked if he considered this a free speech issues denied that, saying (and i'm paraphrasing here cause my memory ain't that great) "we at The New York Times could publish a page 3 girl everyday, but we don't because it would greatly offend a massive section of our readership" he went on to mention a phrase (i think it was American legal Latin) and inferred that with free speech (in newspaper publishing) come greats responsibility (i know, i know shades of Spiderman ) anyway i thought it was an interesting point (even if i didn't know what the Latin (?) meant)

in the real word ideals are tempered with reality (as someone recently remarked on this very forum on the subject of capitalism and how world is dominated by "mixed" (i.e. reality-based) economies)

that cartoon of the prophet was guaranteed to cause major offence, afaik at least 4 embassies have been torched (possibly more) ambassadors have been asked to leave some countrys and some Muslim countrys are breaking of trade with Denmark as a result. i think 'silly mess' at this point is downplaying it somewhat (especially if your Danish, more so if you work in an export industry)

besides the extremists with the placards and those stupidly dressed as suicide bombers that were pictured on the news and in papers there was a far, far larger group of protesters outside the embassy that day on the other side of the road, i learned this from the correspondents on the same program. they were not chanting or anything like that, they were just there en mass in solidarity, the same New York Times correspondent had went over and talked to a 50 year old man quietly standing there "why are you here ?" he asked "i have never been to protest before in my entire life" said the man "they can do what ever they want in all things as far as i'm concerned, i am not extremist like those people (he gestured across the street), i am a quite family man, they can do whatever they want to me, but don't touch my prophet !"

it's because of public responses like that we have blasphemy laws (which as i've said i actually support)
free speech is an ideal, and one that can be reasoned and justified with logically arguments but religious people are not big on reasoned and justified logically arguments which fly in face of what they believe and in the end, you can only say so much to human being and then the red mist descends, ideal or no ideal.

its human chalk and cheese. dangerous human chalk and cheese.

and i ask you (those in the home of the free) how many major US news outlets have reproduced them ?

[jaredfogle]

Richard Stallman, a cat whose political views I oft align with

Some of Stallman's political writings are really good. He seems to get way too much of his information from uruknet though.

I agree. But, man, political cartoons are ****ing stupid. They accomplish nothing, they're never funny, they don't try to persuade, all they do is reinforce existing stereotypes of politics and reinforce the beliefs of those who already align themselves with the cartoonist.

Political cartoons are occasionally funny, and a few do try to persuade. But yeah, the vast majority is crap. In particular, I think there's too much insider humor (e.g. symbolizing Tom DeLay as a hammer, in reference to a nickname that I've never heard in general public discourse), and too many cartoonists do painfully obvious jokes or themes (I lost count of the number of times I saw Christopher Reeve flying Superman-style out of his wheelchair to heaven, for instance).

Political cartoons generally piss me off.

I dig Boondocks, though. But that's not really in the same piss-stream as the sort we're talking about.

[Lartrak]

Richard Stallman, a cat whose political views I oft align with

Some of Stallman's political writings are really good. He seems to get way too much of his information from uruknet though.

I agree. But, man, political cartoons are ****ing stupid. They accomplish nothing, they're never funny, they don't try to persuade, all they do is reinforce existing stereotypes of politics and reinforce the beliefs of those who already align themselves with the cartoonist.

Political cartoons are occasionally funny, and a few do try to persuade. But yeah, the vast majority is crap. In particular, I think there's too much insider humor (e.g. symbolizing Tom DeLay as a hammer, in reference to a nickname that I've never heard in general public discourse), and too many cartoonists do painfully obvious jokes or themes (I lost count of the number of times I saw Christopher Reeve flying Superman-style out of his wheelchair to heaven, for instance).

Political cartoons generally piss me off.

I dig Boondocks, though. But that's not really in the same piss-stream as the sort we're talking about.

Boondocks isn't quite the same thing as what I meant. But yeah, I find it amusing sometimes. Thing I like it about it is that a large portion of the time, it works both as a straight cartoon and politically - and it also occasionally mocks the left (usually when they deserve it) as well.

and i ask you (those in the home of the free) how many major US news outlets have reproduced them ?

Eh. The cartoons I've seen are largely targetted at a European audience. I don't think too many papers around here would show them for that reason. I've seen lots of political cartoons about Islam, but I can't recall any that have shown the Prophet himself.

free speech is an ideal, and one that can be reasoned and justified with logically arguments but religious people are not big on reasoned and justified logically arguments which fly in face of what they believe and in the end, you can only say so much to human being and then the red mist descends, ideal or no ideal.

So because of the lowest common denominator, you curtail free speech? I guess the USA just usually has different priorities. I don't doubt that having a more expansive definition of free speech would and/or could lead to more crime and violence, I just think it is worth it.

There are numerous cases where removing freedoms can reduce crime, but it is not a good trade, in my view. Not usually a good trade anyways - I can deal with the cliche example of not being allowed to yell "bomb" or "fire" in a crowded theatre.

I seem to be a bit of an extremist on this topic I've noticed though.. I'm wary even of "soliciting murder" charges (though if what the article says is true, I don't have a problem with that charge in this case).

[az_bont]

If anyone wants to view the 12 cartoons in question, you can find them here.

[Hawq]

I've quite liked some of the comments that have been made about the reactions to the toons, clarksons in his column yesterday being 'so you cant get bogroll or other supplies in downtown kabul but you can get a danish flag?' or jimmy carrs 'muslim countries have reacted by putting an embargo on danish products, I dont think porn, drugs & bacon had a big market among them'

[|darc|]

I think getting over all this God business is the next big, positive step for humanity.

I'm not exactly sure where or why it all came about, but come on folks. Let's grow up a bit.

agreed.

[Christuserloeser]

The concept that Islam may be a violent religion at its very core

What does this even mean?

the religion they follow may not be so inherrently peaceful

I am of the opinion that it's not "inherently peaceful", at least not in any way that really matters. I hold the same opinion of Christianity, Judaism, and in fact most other religions.

what i mean is, the core standards at the heart of islam are not cohesive with a peaceful society. I can see why you would have issue with what I've said. I've criticised a belief system and you as a onlooker automatically assume i must be prejudiced and dislike brown people- because come on now all religions are peaceful, it's one of their characteristics, people always say that they are.

Why is this the case for Islam? what evidence do you have that it's the same as any other religion in that sense? the muslims who are peaceful perhaps? what makes you think that they are the ones who are correctly interpreting the quran?

Mohammed killed hundreds of people in his lifetime and urges muslims to do the same, read his biography. The treatment of women in muslim society is frightening:[...]

Very true. One thing tho: At first, as some people already pointed out within this thread other religions started similar. Other than that, you make it sound like ALL muslims are terrorists and killers. You should not forget that it's pretty possible to meet muslim people right across the street who are just like me and you - democratic, progressive, materialistic, etc. What divides us ? We really should not leave them alone.
I mean, I know am Christian but I don't feel very Christian. Sometimes? Maybe.

What I realized just recently (literally a few weeks ago), after two or three very anti-muslim years, is that you have to respect believers of all religions.

Having a communist point of view makes you laugh about religion but just have a look at the dark side of the Soviet Union as they didn't really tolerate religious activities. Not that there's been too much repressions but they obviously didn't love you following your believe that much.

Beeing materialistic too, the Nazis didn't tolerate any religion as well, so they killed progressive Christians and - not without beeing supported by conservative Christians, mainly the Catholic church - especially Jews.

What I learned when thinking about that was that it doesn't matter what religion you do believe in or if you believe at all - it's a free world, believe in everything you want. Just don't force your religion on others.