One more reason for a devver operated sales shop..

[NightStalker]

dreamsnes rules.did i mention that?


anyway..it would also rule with the best of the best pd roms as well.

[mankrip]

I guess Dan's point is that people won't be satisfied with PD ROMs. Many people would buy the CD, and then say things like "hey, there's no MegaMan games on this disc", "could you sell me a CD with Super Contra and Super Mario Bros. 3?", and things like that. Then some warezers would call these people and say "contact me, I have what you want", and in some time people could start thinking that what the DC scene has to offer will never be as good as what the warezers have. It's an illogical thought, but most human beings are not very logical.

I guess it's all about satisfaction. If a customer wants a certain commercial game, (s)he won't be satisfied with a PD game, no matter how good this PD game is.

Plus, EBay is very known as territory of warezers. No matter how much we try to make people see the difference between us and the warezers, many people still won't see it. And I bet that many customers of EBay don't know how to identify a warezer either.

[MetaFox]

The auction would have to be worded as such to not make people think they're getting illegal games.

Sure, that wouldn't stop people from buying and selling games with the commercial roms included - in all honesty, we can never completely stop that, but we can put a small dent in it, and get some new fans as well.

I don't know how many people who I show the Dreamcast games from here that are shocked that people are even making Dreamcast games at all anymore. It's even enticed them to buy a DC for themselves (a Dreamcast for $20, and hundreds of new games for it for free - what's not to love).

If we can get a public domain CD out there full of the best of the best, and target it towards those people out there searching for "Dreamcast" in ebay or "Dreamcast NES", etc. who have no idea that there is a huge community full of new games out there, available for free (and of course make perfectly clear that this is legal), then we will be making a difference.

We will be making a small cut in the warezer's sales (a miniscule cut mind you, but it will still be less sales, and a victory for us), and we will be bringing in more users of our games.

It's a win/win situation.

[Christuserloeser]

Since I am working on various legal emulator compilations for DCEvolution.net for almost a year now, I'd like to point out that there certainly is enuff material of interest for the average gamer plus there's the need to get more people interested in the DC. As I see it, the DC scene will stay around for a loooong time, but there will be fewer people in about two years. The profit comes when people see what the DC scene is all about and starting becoming involved.

PS - Check the link in my sig for a SEGA 8bit compilation.

[Mikey242]

I agree with MetaFox, if this is done properly then there is no reason why it should hurt anyone except for the warez monkeys. Over ad DCEvolution, new disc images are comming out almost monthly, all will perfectly legal content.

Dan I think you are overreacting in a big way, like nightstalker said, its just an idea, that may branch off into something good that you would have never thought of or could have predicted at such an early stage.

[Christuserloeser]

One thing to add (after reading the initial posts again): Making profits from selling PD ROMs is illegal. That stuff is released under the GNU license, therefore it's -not- possible to sell them at any prize except for the costs of the media. In this case you have to consider ebay fee and mailing as well, but that's it! No profit may be earned from selling free games.

PLUS: You'd have to ask every single author that created ROM x or y to get permission to include their work in a collection that you actually sell.

If Scherzo would like to get something done with NesterDC SE, like publishing new NES games for DC, then that's his thing. I don't exactly see what you have to do with this, Dark Savant0. We alrady had this discussion in this thread:

As soon as it comes out, I will burn a few copies with PD roms and package them and sell them on ebay!

I was sort of thinking of doing that as well, but getting them professional pressed and all. I dunno. Gotta finish it first.

[laughs; then wonders whether or not to take this at all seriously] As long as you get approval from *all* the authors whose works are used (including those involved in the Nester codebase)

I do think emulators hold a fascinating market potential within the homebrew community, though. Someone can create a game for one system (say, NES, or Atari, or GBA), then get it published for other systems as well through the use of emulation. This is why I was so fascinated by GPF's initial work on a functional GBA emulator; it opens the floodgates to the huge development community centered around that platform.

If there is any seriousness behind this, you try talking with Goatdan and some folks involved in NES development about this possibility, since I'd imagine native NES publication would be rather too expensive for an independent hobbyist developer to pursue. I know there have been a few professional-quality NES releases in recent years (I remember a particularly good isometric top-down shooter coming out ~2000, for example...and though it can't be marketed due to copyright issues, Grand Theftendo certainly shows that there are talented people interested). Hell, if the package is slick and put together well, I might be willing to shell out the $10 or $15 or so myself for a nice collection of a few "original" titles.

So, esp. with all the new features you're adding, you might actually be able to play up your program as a publishing platform for other developers. Of course, I'm sure there would be licensing issues to work out with previous Nester/NesterDC contributors....

@GOATDan: Emulation isn't illegal. It's just the way it's used. I came to the DC scene via buying emulators from ebay in early 2002, but since I am working hard for legal freeware stuff, I really understand both points of view.
The DC hasn't only a good reputation among the big software houses but also among the small retro communities, so I do think that there's a market for (new) hombrew'd games written for retro hardware since the DC is capable of playing them, while the original systems need some extensive equipments like e.g. flash cartridges.

[BlackAura]

Making profits from selling PD ROMs is illegal. That stuff is released under the GNU license, therefore it's -not- possible to sell them at any prize except for the costs of the media.

Wrong on both counts.

If a PD ROM is really public domain, then you can do whatever you like with it. Being in the public domain means that the author holds no copyright over it, and it's freely available for whatever use you want, commercial or otherwise. You need no permission from the author - they have disclaimed all rights to it.

If it is released under the GPL, then you can still do whatever you like with it, provided you either distribute the source code, or provide some way for people to get the source code. You are not allowed to charge more than the cost of media for the source code, but you can charge as much as you like for the software itself. That's why commercial Linux distributions can get away with selling Linux distributions consisting of 99.9% GPL'ed code. Again, you need no permission from the author - they've already given you that permission.

If it's under another licence (such as generic "freeware" licences), or isn't specified, then it would need to be investigated on a case by case basis.

[OneThirty8]

One thing to add (after reading the initial posts again): Making profits from selling PD ROMs is illegal. That stuff is released under the GNU license, therefore it's -not- possible to sell them at any prize except for the costs of the media. In this case you have to consider ebay fee and mailing as well, but that's it! No profit may be earned from selling free games.

That stuff about the GPL is not true. It is perfectly legal to sell Free Software licensed under the GPL provided that it is accompanied by a copy of the license and an offer to provide the source code at a price not to exceed the cost of delivery. You may charge whatever people are willing to pay for the binaries as long as you comply with these other conditions.

[Christuserloeser]

Thanks for clarifing (sp?) that up. I also think the source code would be of interest for those, who are interested in dev'n for each of the retro systems - that's why I am trying to add all the available source code to DCEvo's DEP releases too.

/me thinks that he has to update the GB/GBC release...

If a PD ROM is really public domain, then you can do whatever you like with it.

Problem is that the games almost never are PD. I only came across two cases where the author said 'it's PD, do what you want with that thing'. It's almost always "Selling is illegal! Ask before you do anything." in the release information.

[NightStalker]

what i was imaging as an end scenario was that everything that is available now,still be available for download at no charge.but that it could also be purchased at whatever costs the development community(meaning the devvers..)deemed appropriate.that way everyone can enjoy the dc,it strengthens the community,while putting an ever so slight dent in illegal sales.


i didnt understand until recently that items such as quake port,etc couldnt be sold without express permission from their original creators..ID,etc..so i assume those items will have to remain free downloads only.unless ID,etc. wouldnt mind a non-profit dreamcast release of the non profit stuff they already offer for free.

even with those items not being able to be offered..there is still much that can be.

[goatdan]

Here's the problem that is what I'm getting at, and say what you want -- if a project like this were to go forward, I definitely think it would be the end of independant publishing of new stuff. Let me explain:

So a few people start deciding to sell these discs on eBay at cost to try to turn the people away from the illegal ROM discs being sold. The first problem is that most of the illegal ROMs are what people want, as I've already said. Most known, legal games are not public domain. A hack of Super Mario Brothers that was made by someone for fun and distributed for free isn't really public domain either. So you're stuck with the pure homebrew games that were released for free -- Yes, there are some good ones, but not many / any that are well known.

So now, you have the problem of who would offer these discs. Going at it in a vigilante sense where anyone can make anything means that people are going to start deciding to profit off it some. If you're not making any money but spending two hours a week to educate people, then you're still losing two hours a week. How much is that two hours worth to you?

The temptation to sell things for a higher price that you wanted to will be there, and if we have 10 people selling stuff, I guarantee at least one of them will go, "Hey, if I just start pressing ROMs too, people will buy those for a higher price." Then, suddenly, our vigilantes are out there doing things differently across the board, and it would be impossible to police them just like it is eBay now, only some of them would have associations here...

The reason I kept bringing up Propeller Arena and Half Life is that while no one has suggested it yet, who would be there to stop these people from making these games too? If the scene as a whole gets associated with these types of projects, there will eventually be someone on here saying that people just want to play Propeller Arena, so they should just print it and sell it at cost so no one is making any money from it. There will be one side who will argue that this is wrong, and the other that will argue that it should be done because the eBay warez people shouldn't be the ones making money off it. The fact that a precedence has already been set by doing the same sort of things for emulators and whatnot will cause people to argue both ways on it, and in the end it will cause the community to splinter.

The community is looked upon so positively by outside forces because it is so opposed to doing anything illegal. Skirting the issue -- even in good faith -- is going to make these same places look at the community as no better. It's all about perception, and if the perception is that there are suddenly emulators on eBay that are being endorsed by the community, then that is where it ends.

My point isn't that people will think that the DC scene is inferior, but the fact that people (especially important people to the community that are invisible) will see the scene as the same as the bad guys. The answer shouldn't be "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" as I mentioned. That doesn't work.

There is only one way I see to make a completely public domain CD work, and I can't imagine it happening -- but that would be for someone to put it together as close to a completely professional release as possible and getting a bunch of them. Then, having only one source of distribution -- sort of an actual pressing of the emulators. Unfortunately, there are a ton of problems with this:

1) You still aren't delivering what people who are buying the emulators really want -- Super Mario Brothers 3, Zelda, Sonic 3, Donkey Kong Country, Adventure and Pitfall.
2) Doing it as a professional project and standardizing it would make it so that only one person or group would make all the discs. Who would do that and why? And it would have to be VERY professional to not get it mistaken with other projects.
3) There is a HUGE time requirement associated with this.
4) EBay probably won't differentiate between the illegal comps and the legal one -- and while it doesn't look like eBay cares (and for the most part, they don't), I know of two sellers who had their accounts revoked by eBay specifically for selling emulators with ROMs. And I know this because I was doing other (legal) transactions with them when they got pulled and explained to me that they were "just" selling emulators and eBay sucked.

If anyone starts acting as themselves, we'll just have a flood of DC Emulation-related emulators on the market and people won't find it any different than the legal ones -- other than the fact they don't include the games they want.

And for anyone that says I'm overreacting -- I have over $10,000 invested in the publication of three games so far, and intend on investing probably around another $10,000 this year for more publication. I have seen another scene fall apart because groups started acting on their own and it worries me to know that I'm investing more than four times what I paid for my car in a scene that could collapse onto itself in a minute if the scene decides to start policing itself. Yes, it really bothers me. If this is just a fact-finding idea-time, we need to really look at what is being done and the logistics of doing it the right way, and also looking at the other ways we can try to do things before we jump into what should be a last resort.

And I'm not just worried about this because I have $20,000 invested in it, but also the fact that I really love the scene and I want to see what other things are coming out for it. The way to get more attention is through legal activities -- I can guarantee that some of the upcoming GOAT Store releases should make a lot of noise and get more people involved, and I know of other stuff in the works too. EBay is not the solution.

So basically my bottom line is this -- before you start jumping into anything, everyone better take a huge step back and think about all of the ways this should be gone about first, and then ONLY if those ways fail should another way be sought after. The general tone of this has seemed to be "lets start this project right away!" and if that happens, this will only lead to a disaster. If there isn't a seriously strong, organized method to this madness, the house of cards we're currently living in will collapse.

This is the most successful homebrew community ever right now, period, but it is only that way because the people involved have been so careful about intellectual property and public perception so far. If we lose that, the entire scene will not benefit from it, but it will collapse. And that is a valid concern that I can't believe other people don't see.

[OneThirty8]

This is the most successful homebrew community ever right now, period, but it is only that way because the people involved have been so careful about intellectual property and public perception so far. If we lose that, the entire scene will not benefit from it, but it will collapse. And that is a valid concern that I can't believe other people don't see.

I see where you're coming from, and you defend your position well. Like I said, I don't see what harm doing the "I'll burn you a disc with only legally redistributable stuff, and you can just reimburse me for the CD and shipping" type of deal would do, except that's not what these people really want. So, I think you and I are coming at that same problem from slightly different angles. The rest of what you said is very important, and I'm glad you make that point. Our scene could grow a great deal through the efforts of the GOAT store and the developers publishing games through the GOAT store, but their reputation is tied in with that of the community. It's not about not doing anything wrong. It's about not even looking like we might be doing something wrong. Some people don't make the distinction between an emulator and a pirated game played though an emulator. Some of these people are important in the industry. Their opinion matters.

[NightStalker]

can i ask a simple question? what is the difference between the goat store selling a few homebrew titles and a devver store selling a few homebrew titles?


there doesnt seem to be one that i can find.

[curt_grymala]

I suppose it's time for me to offer my official view on this subject (if anyone cares).

1) It would be a terrible shame to lose the GOAT store from the scene. GOAT is the future of this community.
2) I would like to see something done to curb the amount of sellers on Ebay selling homebrew software for incredible amounts of money. Some copies of BOR mods are going for upwards of $150.00 each.
3) It is technically against Ebay policy to contact bidders/buyers and warn them about a seller's illegal activities.
4) It would be nice to see some homebrew packages, especially a few of the DCEvolution projects, put on professional discs, and sold on Ebay, or similar outlets, to show people what is possible, to bring new people into the community, and to attempt to abate the gross amount of illegal homebrew sales on Ebay.

What am I suggesting? I'm not exactly certain. I would like to see a small, close-knit group of people (a staff, if you will) working on some professional releases to be sold at cost (cost meaning the price of the disc, the paper, the case, shipping, and listing costs, not including personal time or labor in the least).
It would be especially nice to see GOAT support the cause, and list some of the releases on their site. It would be even nicer to see GOAT get involved in the cause, and help press these discs professionally. I don't think a project like this could go through properly without professionally pressing the discs (CD-R's just wouldn't cut it).

However, with that said, if the GOAT store is still diametrically opposed to the idea, even if it is a completely legal solution, then I fear I would have to stand against it as well. IMO, the GOAT store has done too much for this community, and is too dedicated to its success, to stand against them in their own arena.

[NightStalker]

heck i dont wanna see GOAT go anywhere.maybe GOAT could be the store for different compilation cd's.who knows ya know?i just believe it could be a good thing rather than a bad one...ehhh..not to quote martha stewart..

[goatdan]

All right, as quickly as possible...

It probably wouldn't make financial sense to press such a disc, although that is what it would take to make it truly professional and taken seriously. You could do some sort of CD-R thing, but doing so would take a lot of time to manufacture. More on this in a bit though...

I am not opposed to the making of a disc in any way... what I am opposed to is selling them in some sort of "scene" vigilante movement that would have ten people pressing ten different discs and selling them for the good of the scene. Eventually, even someone with the best initial intentions will get lured to make a disc of SNES ROMs and sell it... and even if they weren't, the perception that these sellers would be willing to do so is still there.

If there was a unified effort to create and package a disc in the same general way and then present and sell it in the same general way -- even if on CD-R -- that's fine and might have the chance to be a positive for the community. But who would get to sell this CD-R? If they did something wrong with it (offering ROMs to the winner of an auction outside of eBay for instance) how would they be responsible?

There is no difference between the GOAT Store making a release and a devver group making a release because there is a controlling entity that if they do something wrong would pay the price and could essentially be dismissed from the community. The problem is that the way that the conversation had evolved, it had nothing to do with a developer operated shop and everything to do with trying to enact vigilante copyright law, which would have only come off as disorganized and both unprofessional and questionable.

The idea with GOAT Games was for us to be able to make a disc of smaller stuff and get it out there for everyone to use. Part of what is on GOAT Games is stuff that is downloadable. Part of it is new content.

But I don't want too -- and I don't want the scene in general to condone the manufacturing of anything that is in the gray areas or even looks like it may condone that. Emulators for the most part fall into this category. As I've mentioned, I know fully well that emulators are legal... but in many ways it is like Kazaa: The software is legal, but what you are doing with it is probably not. Emulation is legal, but ROMs that are not public domain are not legal to posses without the original game. That is what people want. Making a disc full of emulators and declaring it as a "Nintendo and SNES in one!" makes it sound shady. "Nintendo and SNES emulator with public domain ROMs!" sounds stupid and I can't imagine anyone would pay $20.00 for it -- or that it would stop someone from paying $20.00 for a SNES emulator that had Super Mario World, Donkey Kong Country, Mortal Kombat and Mario Kart on it.

Beats of Rage is also not illegal, however the graphics that have been used so far on every mod that I know of are from other games. That is illegal to sell. I've been contacted by a few people making BoR mods about actually publishing them if they replaced all of the graphics with original ones, and I'm very open to the idea. As soon as the scene supports a disc with the characters from Streets of Rage, Mortal Kombat and Mega Man on one disc, that is illegal.

And again -- doing something like this with a bunch of people acting as themselves will just end up with chaos. Everything I said above may sound crazy to some people... To others, maybe not.

Now -- back to the manufacturing thing. If there is enough interest from developers that have written things that they want published that are totally legal (and I'm sorry, but I can't fight the emulator fight unless no ROMs are included as well as no ability to run ROMs, which would make it useless...), I would love to involve your work on either the GOAT Games Compilation that is coming up or somthing else.

Reflecting a little more, I can all but guarantee that there could never be a pressed emulator disc due to certain circumstances, and I definitely wouldn't be able to link to or sell such a thing from the GOAT Store. There are legal issues that this has to do with, and nothing about my support of the idea. The DMCA is really a bastard of a document. If another dev house wants to do a new, legal disc -- as I've said all along, get into contact with me and I will help in any way possible. I really don't care if I make the release or someone named Team 13 makes a release or who it is. I would support it through a purchase for sure, and I would do my part in promoting it.

I don't think that most of the people in the Dreamcast community will ever know the amount of time and money that I put into this, nor how far my love of doing it goes for that matter, and quite frankly I'd rather not have anyone know. The games that we have released so far show off how amazing the talent in the community is, and that is where the real spotlight should be shone.

Having said that, I don't have the type of money to throw at the production of new stuff if the foundation of the scene erodes. I have seen the same sort of thing happen once. I am very worried that an unfocused goodwill gesture could easily make it happen again.

Woooo... and with that LONG post, I think it's time for bed.