Microsoft's Andre Vrignaud about Modchips

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Microsoft's Andre Vrignaud about Modchips

Post by Roofus »

Saw this at Xbox Scene. Interesting read.

Xbox Scene wrote: I received an email from "HcC" earlier last week with an interesting topic: console modding. To quote:
"I also wanted to ask your thoughts on piracy and the xbox modding community. How you think it impacts the way games are made, if you think it does, or anything of the sort. It's just a topic I wouldn't expect to see on your blog and would love to know your opinion. Do you think it will change the success of the xbox 360 in a positive or negative way if it is modded beyond the current firmware runaround."

It's a great question, and I'm happy to share some of my thoughts and opinions on the topic.
For the uninitiated, a mod chip is simply a device that circumvents some of the protections placed on a video game console. A "modded" console is then one that can run unauthorized content or games and potentially enable new functionality. Modchips (and "softmods" or software exploits) have been around since the beginning of consoles, and have a small but vocal minority who tend to argue vociferously about why they have a "right" to use them. These modchip defenders tend to use one of three arguments to justify their use:
* the ability to copy and play pirated games
* the ability to play import games
* the ability to add new functionality (such as running homebrew software)

Let's take these on one at a time.

* First, the ability to pirate games. I mean, really - what can you say here? We already had a conversation about piracy earlier, and at the end of the day every game not legally purchased is simply stealing money from the creators. Some people attempt to justify piracy by pointing to the perceived high price of their hobby and/or games, but the argument just doesn't hold up. You don't steal a Ferrari that you'd love to drive simply because you can't afford it, right? Same thing.

* The desire to play import games is at least a reason I can rationally understand, but cannot condone. Sure, there are games you might want to play that are either released earlier or, quite possibly, not released at all in your region. But sometimes companies have good reasons to either not release a title into a region or release it at different dates. It may be because of the time and cost of localization, marketing plans, ad buys, cultural considerations, or perhaps even because of the impact of piracy in the region. Whatever the case, it's safe to assume the publisher has thought about it. The good news is that most publishers are developing with multiple platforms, regions, and languages in mind up front, so this is becoming less and less of an argument. (After all, it's in the publisher's best interest to sell as many copies as possible, right?)

* Finally, let's talk about the desire to add new functionality to the console. Some folks want to enable new functionality on consoles beyond what was delivered by the manufacturer. Sometimes the desire is to add new hardware capability (say a larger hard drive); other times it's to add new functionality such as PVR support, web browsing, or to run homebrew applications of whatever sort might be imagined.
This is the one aspect of modding I've always struggled with the most myself, but at the end of the day I just can't condone it. Here's why.
The console business is a razor/razor blade model. Hardware (the console) is subsidized (meaning Microsoft sells it at below cost) to make it easier for consumers to get it into their homes. The business then makes this up by selling you additional hardware (peripherals), software (games), and services (Xbox Live). The success of this razor/razor blade model is tracked by analysts as the "attach rate," or how many of these add-ons an average person might have per console. (The most common metric you'll see tracked is the game attach rate to a console, but some analysts also track the attach rate of peripherals and Xbox Live.)
Over time you buy games (and other peripherals and services). The revenue generated from those purchases helps to make the business a profitable one (which is the reason you see a healthy game industry, and continual investment in new features, games, and hardware). Some folks point to the fact that they bought the hardware and believe they should be able to do anything they wish with it. Unfortunately, this argument ignores the fact that they're buying that hardware at below cost, and it's the razor/razor blade model that makes it even possible to buy at that price. The other solution would be to sell the hardware at a price that covers cost and also includes a profit margin so that selling the console alone (with no game/peripheral/service sales) could be a stand-alone business. Problem is A) this model already exists (it's called a PC), and B) selling a console at PC prices (especially with the capabilities the console has in it) would simply be too expensive and no one would buy it. At the end of the day, the cost difference needs to be made up somewhere, and that's why we need to you buy those razor blades.
The interesting thing to me is that I think the idea of homebrew/user-created content is looked at with much interest at Microsoft (we are a software company after all), but the challenges caused by the impact to our business model make it very difficult to enable. Interesting tidbit: a friend of mine at Microsoft once demonstrated a modded PSP to Bill Gates and showed off all of the interesting things that enabled. According to my friend Bill was intrigued and asked the audience what we might be able to do to encourage this sort of thing without damaging the business. I love that our top executives think this way - the challenge, of course, is that modchips allow much more than just homebrew software, and so it's a tough problem to sort out.

To sum up, I think the reason we see a lot of industry angst around modchips is the piracy it enables, and the damage it causes to attach rate (which in turn breaks the fundamental model all consoles are built on). A lower attach rate is bad for the industry as a whole as it impacts game, hardware, and service sales for the entire industry (not just Microsoft). While I imagine there may be a few folks who really do just want to run custom applications on their console and have no intent to pirate games, we have yet to find a way to separate legitimate use from illegitimate. It's disappointing, but there you go.

I do hope my opinions on the subject help you understand how many in this industry view the subject. At the end of the day piracy is a tough problem that affects us all. I do hope that it one day it won't be as much of an issue, but I fear that time is still far away.
I'm not sure I agree with his position on imports. I understand his position on homebrew (though again, I don't agree with it.) I think homebrew in general (and Xbox Media Center in particular) are responsible for a not-insignificant portion of Xbox sales. I know, his argument is that MS makes its money off of accessory sales and would just as soon not sell to people who just want XBMC.

I'm with him so far. But here's where we part ways. XBMC fills a niche that no other product(?) fills: A cheap, nicely featured, easy-to-use (though admittedly not that easy to setup) media playback device. XP Media Center Edition does it, but not for nearly as good a price.

I think what MS should have done was release an upgrade kit and/or a special edition Xbox that had similar functionality and format support. I would gladly have paid $150-$200 for an upgrade kit, or that much extra for a special edition. They did release the Media Center Extender kit but it required MCE. I did buy it, but only so I could use the remote with XBMC.

Thoughts?
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Post by Caboose »

They could do like Nintendo and make hardware that they can sell at a reasonable price and still make a profit. This way, mod chips would exactly help, but they wouldn't hurt either.
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Post by 404NotFound »

I never understood why they choose to lose money on a console just to gain it back in games. Either way they need to cover their costs, and either way its' coming from my pocket.

Why not just make the consoles more expensive (to actual cost) and the games cheaper (taking out attachment nonsense). You can't pirate a whole console, but you can pirate games.
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Post by Nick »

His logic is severely flawed. Importing a game nets the publisher of said title the same amount as if it had been sold locally. The region argument is bogus, and region encoding games has been examined and found to be borderline illegal. It's a BS way for companies to price-fix in certain regions, and essentially screw consumers in the ass.

Secondly, the razor/blade model. By his logic, an individual who purchases the system and buys no games -- just lets it sit on his shelf -- is "bad." Essentially, in so many words, he's saying that those people screw Microsoft. That's the type of risk you take when you employ the razor/blade model. Once an Xbox is out of the factory and into your hands, you can do whatever you want with it. There's nothing stopping you cracking it open and using it, so long as you don't pirate anything off of MS (which most of the dashes do...using cracked kernels or w/e the hell it is). If all you want to do is open it up, add some pretty lights or a chip, then MS can't do sh*t. He can't "condone" it from a business standpoint, but from a morality standpoint, he has to condone it -- because, quite honestly, there's nothing wrong going down here.

I give him props for addressing the issue, but it seems like he's torn between his corporate responsibilities at MS and what he truly feels. Morals and business are hard to reconcile.
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Post by Veggita2099 »

I think they should just remove region codes in consoles. I am at a point now where I would just assume buy a game if I want it. Trying to download dvd sized games and make difficult mods, cd swap tricks etc is just a pain Id assume not deal with. I modded my PS2 and to be honest I think I used it 1 time to play the SNES emulator (which was really no better then DReamSNES is).

IF there is a game I want bad enough I will either buy it, or wait for it to get cheap.

When he talks about certain games not being available in certain areas it reminds me of Wolfenstein 3d. I remember when you looked at there ads etc it showed where it was not sold in Germany.
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Post by impetus »

Veggita2099 wrote:I am at a point now where I would just as soon buy a game if I want it.
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Post by Lartrak »

The good news is that most publishers are developing with multiple platforms, regions, and languages in mind up front, so this is becoming less and less of an argument. (After all, it's in the publisher's best interest to sell as many copies as possible, right?)
Yeah, but there will always be regions where the console is not popular enough to sell many games to. In addition, certain niche products wouldn't sell well enough to justify it. Maybe in the future we'll see more Electroplankton style releases, but as is, odd little Japanese games are still highly unlikely to get translations and domestic releases outside Japan. More and more do, but it is still not even close to have of them. What percentage of the PS2's releases were put out in the USA? 2/3? In the SNES era, it was about 1/2.

Although I do have to say I was a bit shocked when Katamari Damacy (which I played on a friend's imported PS2 long before it was released here) made it to the states.

And, as has been mentioned, his talk of the cost of making consoles is pretty defeated by Nintendo's GameCube totally competing graphically with the other two and still being cheap enough to make a profit off of.
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Post by Ex-Cyber »

Yeah, he's basically saying he "cannot condone" things because they don't make Microsoft any money. What a shocker.
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Post by greay »

Lartrak wrote: Yeah, but there will always be regions where the console is not popular enough to sell many games to. In addition, certain niche products wouldn't sell well enough to justify it. Maybe in the future we'll see more Electroplankton style releases, but as is, odd little Japanese games are still highly unlikely to get translations and domestic releases outside Japan. More and more do, but it is still not even close to have of them. What percentage of the PS2's releases were put out in the USA? 2/3? In the SNES era, it was about 1/2.
There's no saying they have to market the niche games or even sell them in a region that they might not be popular. But to disallow someone from playing a game targeted at another region is stupid.
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Re: Microsoft's Andre Vrignaud about Modchips

Post by |darc| »

Roofus wrote:* First, the ability to pirate games. I mean, really - what can you say here? We already had a conversation about piracy earlier, and at the end of the day every game not legally purchased is simply stealing money from the creators. Some people attempt to justify piracy by pointing to the perceived high price of their hobby and/or games, but the argument just doesn't hold up. You don't steal a Ferrari that you'd love to drive simply because you can't afford it, right? Same thing.
NO. Not every instance of piracy is a lost sale: Some people have a lot more pirated software and media than they could ever afford to purchase legitimately. These aren't lost sales. This doesn't make them any more morally acceptable, but I wish companies would stop reporting piracy figures as lost sales. This isn't to mention the people who could afford the products but would settle for second best if piracy wasn't an option (i.e. GIMP over Photoshop).

No, I wouldn't steal a Ferrari because I have enough morals to not screw someone else out of a Ferrari. However, I'd gladly copy that guy's Ferrari, as obviously I wouldn't be able to buy my own Ferrari.
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Post by Ex-Cyber »

Darcus Magnus wrote:No, I wouldn't steal a Ferrari because I have enough morals to not screw someone else out of a Ferrari. However, I'd gladly copy that guy's Ferrari, as obviously I wouldn't be able to buy my own Ferrari.
But don't you see? It's exactly the same. You're screwing your local Ferrari dealer out of a sale. He's clearly entitled to a profit just for sporting the Ferrari trademark, and by not giving him your money, you're taking the food right out of his kids' mouths! Just like all those evil Honda drivers.
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Re: Microsoft's Andre Vrignaud about Modchips

Post by Nick »

Darcus Magnus wrote:
Roofus wrote:* First, the ability to pirate games. I mean, really - what can you say here? We already had a conversation about piracy earlier, and at the end of the day every game not legally purchased is simply stealing money from the creators. Some people attempt to justify piracy by pointing to the perceived high price of their hobby and/or games, but the argument just doesn't hold up. You don't steal a Ferrari that you'd love to drive simply because you can't afford it, right? Same thing.
NO. Not every instance of piracy is a lost sale: Some people have a lot more pirated software and media than they could ever afford to purchase legitimately. These aren't lost sales. This doesn't make them any more morally acceptable, but I wish companies would stop reporting piracy figures as lost sales. This isn't to mention the people who could afford the products but would settle for second best if piracy wasn't an option (i.e. GIMP over Photoshop).

No, I wouldn't steal a Ferrari because I have enough morals to not screw someone else out of a Ferrari. However, I'd gladly copy that guy's Ferrari, as obviously I wouldn't be able to buy my own Ferrari.
I think the comparison that he's trying to make is two-fold. One, it does result in lost sales. If there was no way to pirate, say, Halo 2, then those who pirated it AND could afford it would have to go buy it to play it. So it does result in some lost sales. So, as you said, there are some lost sales when piracy comes into play.

The second part is that he's commenting on the anonymity that the internet provides. You wouldn't go out and steal a Ferrari, because, well, that's out in the "real world," and it's easier to track down. On the internet, you're just an IP address floating around, and people feel they can hide behind that.
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Post by Sultan of Saturn »

His article holds merit as there are so many cheap @$$es out there who would rather steal than pay what is due to those who made something of value. Honestly, they should just correct the issue of terrirtory protection. His argument was weak. How many developers from Japan are either too small or just not able to get their stuff published here in the states? Plenty. The PC engine turbo duo could play both US and Japan released cd games, but it could only play the Japanese hu cards. The hardcore fans will usually import a game if they really want it and perhaps buy a domestic version when it gets released.
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Post by jaredfogle »

His argument against homebrew is ridiculous. We should have to to behave a certain way and exercise limited functionality of the devices we pay for simply because it's good for Microsoft's Business Model?

That's my problem with Microsoft. Business comes before art. Profitability is the reason we see new games to them.

Which is why I like Nintendo's "Turn on, Tune in, Drop out" business model they seem to be building the Wii on.
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Post by Covar »

key point is nintendo still has a business model. despite what they seem the bottom line is that nintendo is still a company and still wishes to make a profit, they're just taking a different approach from microsoft and sony.
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Post by Roofus »

Which is why I like Nintendo's "Turn on, Tune in, Drop out" business model they seem to be building the Wii on.
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Post by Calavera »

You don't steal a Ferrari that you'd love to drive simply because you can't afford it, right? Same thing.
I hate when people say stuff like that. A better argument would be "You wouldn't just walk into the store and steal a game would you" Plus I'm downloading my Ferrari 250 GT California as we speak. Oh wait you can't download a Ferrari, so it's a stupid argument. If you could download a Ferrari, everyone would. They wouldn't care if it was stealing or not.
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Post by jaredfogle »

Covar wrote:key point is nintendo still has a business model. despite what they seem the bottom line is that nintendo is still a company and still wishes to make a profit, they're just taking a different approach from microsoft and sony.
Nintendo has to make a profit, yes, but at least they've got the cart before the horse.

Know what I mean? They aren't in business to make money, but they know they have to make money to stay in business.
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Post by Roofus »

jaredfogle wrote:Nintendo has to make a profit, yes, but at least they've got the cart before the horse.

Know what I mean? They aren't in business to make money, but they know they have to make money to stay in business.
Oh, I get it. Nintendo is your neighborhood weed guy while Microsoft and Sony are the Colombians.
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Post by Covar »

jaredfogle wrote:
Covar wrote:key point is nintendo still has a business model. despite what they seem the bottom line is that nintendo is still a company and still wishes to make a profit, they're just taking a different approach from microsoft and sony.
Nintendo has to make a profit, yes, but at least they've got the cart before the horse.

Know what I mean? They aren't in business to make money, but they know they have to make money to stay in business.
um. wow. it must be nice to live in your world. every business is in business to make money.
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