Steve Jobs on Flash

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Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by |darc| »

Steve Jobs wrote:Apple has a long relationship with Adobe. In fact, we met Adobe’s founders when they were in their proverbial garage. Apple was their first big customer, adopting their Postscript language for our new Laserwriter printer. Apple invested in Adobe and owned around 20% of the company for many years. The two companies worked closely together to pioneer desktop publishing and there were many good times. Since that golden era, the companies have grown apart. Apple went through its near death experience, and Adobe was drawn to the corporate market with their Acrobat products. Today the two companies still work together to serve their joint creative customers – Mac users buy around half of Adobe’s Creative Suite products – but beyond that there are few joint interests.

I wanted to jot down some of our thoughts on Adobe’s Flash products so that customers and critics may better understand why we do not allow Flash on iPhones, iPods and iPads. Adobe has characterized our decision as being primarily business driven – they say we want to protect our App Store – but in reality it is based on technology issues. Adobe claims that we are a closed system, and that Flash is open, but in fact the opposite is true. Let me explain.

First, there’s “Open”.

Adobe’s Flash products are 100% proprietary. They are only available from Adobe, and Adobe has sole authority as to their future enhancement, pricing, etc. While Adobe’s Flash products are widely available, this does not mean they are open, since they are controlled entirely by Adobe and available only from Adobe. By almost any definition, Flash is a closed system.

Apple has many proprietary products too. Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript – all open standards. Apple’s mobile devices all ship with high performance, low power implementations of these open standards. HTML5, the new web standard that has been adopted by Apple, Google and many others, lets web developers create advanced graphics, typography, animations and transitions without relying on third party browser plug-ins (like Flash). HTML5 is completely open and controlled by a standards committee, of which Apple is a member.

Apple even creates open standards for the web. For example, Apple began with a small open source project and created WebKit, a complete open-source HTML5 rendering engine that is the heart of the Safari web browser used in all our products. WebKit has been widely adopted. Google uses it for Android’s browser, Palm uses it, Nokia uses it, and RIM (Blackberry) has announced they will use it too. Almost every smartphone web browser other than Microsoft’s uses WebKit. By making its WebKit technology open, Apple has set the standard for mobile web browsers.

Second, there’s the “full web”.

Adobe has repeatedly said that Apple mobile devices cannot access “the full web” because 75% of video on the web is in Flash. What they don’t say is that almost all this video is also available in a more modern format, H.264, and viewable on iPhones, iPods and iPads. YouTube, with an estimated 40% of the web’s video, shines in an app bundled on all Apple mobile devices, with the iPad offering perhaps the best YouTube discovery and viewing experience ever. Add to this video from Vimeo, Netflix, Facebook, ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, ESPN, NPR, Time, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated, People, National Geographic, and many, many others. iPhone, iPod and iPad users aren’t missing much video.

Another Adobe claim is that Apple devices cannot play Flash games. This is true. Fortunately, there are over 50,000 games and entertainment titles on the App Store, and many of them are free. There are more games and entertainment titles available for iPhone, iPod and iPad than for any other platform in the world.

Third, there’s reliability, security and performance.

Symantec recently highlighted Flash for having one of the worst security records in 2009. We also know first hand that Flash is the number one reason Macs crash. We have been working with Adobe to fix these problems, but they have persisted for several years now. We don’t want to reduce the reliability and security of our iPhones, iPods and iPads by adding Flash.

In addition, Flash has not performed well on mobile devices. We have routinely asked Adobe to show us Flash performing well on a mobile device, any mobile device, for a few years now. We have never seen it. Adobe publicly said that Flash would ship on a smartphone in early 2009, then the second half of 2009, then the first half of 2010, and now they say the second half of 2010. We think it will eventually ship, but we’re glad we didn’t hold our breath. Who knows how it will perform?

Fourth, there’s battery life.

To achieve long battery life when playing video, mobile devices must decode the video in hardware; decoding it in software uses too much power. Many of the chips used in modern mobile devices contain a decoder called H.264 – an industry standard that is used in every Blu-ray DVD player and has been adopted by Apple, Google (YouTube), Vimeo, Netflix and many other companies.

Although Flash has recently added support for H.264, the video on almost all Flash websites currently requires an older generation decoder that is not implemented in mobile chips and must be run in software. The difference is striking: on an iPhone, for example, H.264 videos play for up to 10 hours, while videos decoded in software play for less than 5 hours before the battery is fully drained.

When websites re-encode their videos using H.264, they can offer them without using Flash at all. They play perfectly in browsers like Apple’s Safari and Google’s Chrome without any plugins whatsoever, and look great on iPhones, iPods and iPads.

Fifth, there’s Touch.

Flash was designed for PCs using mice, not for touch screens using fingers. For example, many Flash websites rely on “rollovers”, which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot. Apple’s revolutionary multi-touch interface doesn’t use a mouse, and there is no concept of a rollover. Most Flash websites will need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices. If developers need to rewrite their Flash websites, why not use modern technologies like HTML5, CSS and JavaScript?

Even if iPhones, iPods and iPads ran Flash, it would not solve the problem that most Flash websites need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices.

Sixth, the most important reason.

Besides the fact that Flash is closed and proprietary, has major technical drawbacks, and doesn’t support touch based devices, there is an even more important reason we do not allow Flash on iPhones, iPods and iPads. We have discussed the downsides of using Flash to play video and interactive content from websites, but Adobe also wants developers to adopt Flash to create apps that run on our mobile devices.

We know from painful experience that letting a third party layer of software come between the platform and the developer ultimately results in sub-standard apps and hinders the enhancement and progress of the platform. If developers grow dependent on third party development libraries and tools, they can only take advantage of platform enhancements if and when the third party chooses to adopt the new features. We cannot be at the mercy of a third party deciding if and when they will make our enhancements available to our developers.

This becomes even worse if the third party is supplying a cross platform development tool. The third party may not adopt enhancements from one platform unless they are available on all of their supported platforms. Hence developers only have access to the lowest common denominator set of features. Again, we cannot accept an outcome where developers are blocked from using our innovations and enhancements because they are not available on our competitor’s platforms.

Flash is a cross platform development tool. It is not Adobe’s goal to help developers write the best iPhone, iPod and iPad apps. It is their goal to help developers write cross platform apps. And Adobe has been painfully slow to adopt enhancements to Apple’s platforms. For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago when they shipped CS5. Adobe was the last major third party developer to fully adopt Mac OS X.

Our motivation is simple – we want to provide the most advanced and innovative platform to our developers, and we want them to stand directly on the shoulders of this platform and create the best apps the world has ever seen. We want to continually enhance the platform so developers can create even more amazing, powerful, fun and useful applications. Everyone wins – we sell more devices because we have the best apps, developers reach a wider and wider audience and customer base, and users are continually delighted by the best and broadest selection of apps on any platform.

Conclusions.

Flash was created during the PC era – for PCs and mice. Flash is a successful business for Adobe, and we can understand why they want to push it beyond PCs. But the mobile era is about low power devices, touch interfaces and open web standards – all areas where Flash falls short.

The avalanche of media outlets offering their content for Apple’s mobile devices demonstrates that Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of web content. And the 200,000 apps on Apple’s App Store proves that Flash isn’t necessary for tens of thousands of developers to create graphically rich applications, including games.

New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind.

Steve Jobs
April, 2010

I have to say I can't agree more. People have whined and groaned about the lack of Flash on the iPhone, but the platform really is better without it. Apple has pissed me off with a few things they've done lately, but the lack of Flash on the platform and the recent decision to kill off Flash-based apps aren't among them. The death of Flash is welcome IMO.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Lartrak »

Adobe claims that we are a closed system, and that Flash is open, but in fact the opposite is true.
..yeah, ok.

Calling Apple's system open is what I call a "lie". They have total control of software available for the platform.
People have whined and groaned about the lack of Flash on the iPhone, but the platform really is better without it.
No, it isn't. How is a lack of a feature ever good? If you don't like Flash, fine. On your device that supports it, turn it off. If there's ever something you want to see that uses Flash, pop it back on. How is it good to not even have this option?

I'm actually not the biggest fan of Flash video, finding it glitchy (I've often had trouble with half second freezes, etc - same with a lot of embedded non-Flash video actually) and very inefficient, but IT IS the de facto standard of embedded video. The lack of it is a significant minus for any device that claims to be good for web media.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by not just souLLy now »

I pretty much agree with him 100% to be honest, Flash's only redeeming feature in the last few years is that it made streaming video less of a shitty plug-in nightmare, but since html5 has or will trump that then I'm happy to see it go- in a year when all the major video streaming sites support it nobody will even particularly care anymore.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by |darc| »

Lartrak wrote:
Adobe claims that we are a closed system, and that Flash is open, but in fact the opposite is true.
..yeah, ok.

Calling Apple's system open is what I call a "lie". They have total control of software available for the platform.
That's absolutely true, but I don't think Jobs is hiding that at all. The fact is, however, that when it comes to web standards, Apple and the iPhone platform are helping the industry becoming more open. Would you deny that?
Lartrak wrote:
People have whined and groaned about the lack of Flash on the iPhone, but the platform really is better without it.
No, it isn't. How is a lack of a feature ever good? If you don't like Flash, fine. On your device that supports it, turn it off. If there's ever something you want to see that uses Flash, pop it back on. How is it good to not even have this option?

I'm actually not the biggest fan of Flash video, finding it glitchy (I've often had trouble with half second freezes, etc - same with a lot of embedded non-Flash video actually) and very inefficient, but IT IS the de facto standard of embedded video. The lack of it is a significant minus for any device that claims to be good for web media.
Do you really think YouTube, Vimeo, Netflix, Facebook, ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, ESPN, NPR, Time, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated, People, National Geographic, etc. would all support HTML5 video if it weren't for the iPhone? I'm currently redoing a local business's website because they wanted to move on from having a guy develop a Flash-based site in-house, after the owner bought an iPhone and couldn't browse the site from it. Forcing web developers to move on was the best decision Apple could have made. If Apple had chosen to implement Flash, we'd have a much lower HTML5 adoption rate, iPhone battery life would be even more abysmal than it is now, and we'd have a shoddier overall experience.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Ex-Cyber »

While I actually agree with the overall thrust of the piece (Flash is basically obsolete and shouldn't be relied upon by web developers anymore), there's a lot of misleading stuff in this piece:
Adobe’s Flash products are 100% proprietary. They are only available from Adobe, and Adobe has sole authority as to their future enhancement, pricing, etc. While Adobe’s Flash products are widely available, this does not mean they are open, since they are controlled entirely by Adobe and available only from Adobe. By almost any definition, Flash is a closed system.
The Flash file format and VM specifications are published free of charge and without NDAs. There are third-party Flash content creation systems and third-party Flash players, and these are not merely wrappers around Adobe code but novel implementations. So while the Adobe Flash and Adobe Flash Player software packages are certainly closed products, Flash itself is not a closed system.
Apple even creates open standards for the web. For example, Apple began with a small open source project and created WebKit
Ah, so "creating open standards" means "forking projects written by other people". That small open source project is still maintained, and it has a name: KHTML. Try giving a little credit next time, Steve.
We also know first hand that Flash is the number one reason Macs crash.
By modern standards, userland code crashing the OS is an OS bug or design flaw almost by definition. At least when Microsoft blames drivers for BSODs, they're blaming kernel-mode code.
Adobe has repeatedly said that Apple mobile devices cannot access “the full web” because 75% of video on the web is in Flash. What they don’t say is that almost all this video is also available in a more modern format, H.264
H.264 is not "a more modern format" than Flash video (any more than it's a "more modern format" than AVI), and the video being referred to is not "also" available in H.264. It's available in H.264 because that's the most advanced industry-standard codec that Flash supports.
There are more games and entertainment titles available for iPhone, iPod and iPad than for any other platform in the world.
Oh, bullshit. If you're counting the kind of indie and freeware stuff that's being counted for the App Store here, Windows certainly has far more "games and entertainment titles". Flash probably does, too (Kongregate alone reportedly has over 25000). They're just not all available through one neat little portal that allows a total to be readily calculated.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by |darc| »

Ex-Cyber wrote:The Flash file format and VM specifications are published free of charge and without NDAs. There are third-party Flash content creation systems and third-party Flash players, and these are not merely wrappers around Adobe code but novel implementations. So while the Adobe Flash and Adobe Flash Player software packages are certainly closed products, Flash itself is not a closed system.
AFAIK, Adobe hasn't released all the specs for the Flash format, just some.
Ex-Cyber wrote:
Apple even creates open standards for the web. For example, Apple began with a small open source project and created WebKit
Ah, so "creating open standards" means "forking projects written by other people". That small open source project is still maintained, and it has a name: KHTML. Try giving a little credit next time, Steve.
Isn't he? I took "began with a small open source project and created WebKit" as laymen's speak for "began with KHTML and forked it."
Ex-Cyber wrote:
We also know first hand that Flash is the number one reason Macs crash.
By modern standards, userland code crashing the OS is an OS bug or design flaw almost by definition. At least when Microsoft blames drivers for BSODs, they're blaming kernel-mode code.
He's talking about crashes in general, not kernel panics. He addressed this at WWDC in 08 or 09, as that's when Apple announced support for making Flash a separate process on 64-bit Safari so that when Flash crashes, it just takes out the embedded Flash player on the current page, not the entire browser session.
Ex-Cyber wrote:It's available in H.264 because that's the most advanced industry-standard codec that Flash supports.
Wha? Those sites started implementing h.264 before Flash supported it (at least YouTube did).
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Quzar »

|darc| wrote:Isn't he? I took "began with a small open source project and created WebKit" as laymen's speak for "began with KHTML and forked it."
It could just as easily (if not moreso) be read as: "we began WebKit as a small open source project". On first read that was my interpretation as well, that they were claiming credit for webkit.

To preface the following: I'll be very glad if this helps flush flash out of the web community. I think it really deserves to go the way of ActiveX and cgi. The way it encapsulates other medias, be they interactive or not, really kills web transparency, accessibility, and usefulness.
|darc| wrote:The fact is, however, that when it comes to web standards, Apple and the iPhone platform are helping the industry becoming more open. Would you deny that?
By this one stance yes, but that isn't one of the primary motivations. Apple could, if they wanted, write their own flash interpreters and support flash quite well, others have done so. Hell, we have some Flash on the DC and I'm pretty sure it wasn't from Adobe (not the Planetweb version...).

I think their first point was put first so that it wasn't looked at as easily in light of the other four. If they supported flash fully on the iP* it would still be a poor user experience overall, with the exception of an extreme minority of software that would be written with it in mind. This is a perfect situation for Apple, they can blame someone else for basically not letting them have flash ('only they make it! what can we do?'), do less work, and disallow a user experience that would be overall poor. This is the same sort of attitude they take with stuff on the app store.

Apple here is saying to it's iP* consumers: 'we don't think you really want flash on your pad/pod/phone, so we're not going to give it to you. you're welcome'.

I feel stupid rewriting this next part from Facebook (especially since, after some sleep I find it harder to see my exact point), but whatever. Opera (the browser) for years has based itself solely on web standards. This is why so many pages that work in IE simply don't in Opera. Firefox on the other hand, has much greater compatibility because they don't take that stance and simply want to offer the ability to render websites regardless of how poorly or IE-centric they are. Of course, IE is the biggest offender as it has always promoted and allowed all sorts of non-standard stuff or interprets pages in a way specifically contrary to some standard which forces web developers to write non-standard sites in order to cater to their audience. My point is: since when do people care about that and show that they do by boycotting sites that violate standards?
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Specially Cork »

I am so tired of having choices as a consumer and web-user. I am so glad thoughtful companies like Apple are out there - testing popular options, and refusing to support those they don't like in order to kill them off for me.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Ex-Cyber »

|darc| wrote:AFAIK, Adobe hasn't released all the specs for the Flash format, just some.
AFAIK, the only parts they haven't documented now are things like the video codecs, which aren't really theirs to document. The spec used to be under an extremely restrictive EULA a few years ago (something to the effect of "you're not allowed to use this document to write a Flash player or a tool that can edit .fla files"), but the looming threat of Silverlight got Adobe to rethink the approach to the platform. I've seen some rumors that some behavior is poorly documented, but no citations of any major chunks that are missing. People mostly used to complain about the video-related stuff not being there, but the container formats and streaming protocol are documented now and it's not really Adobe's job to document the codecs.
Ex-Cyber wrote:
We also know first hand that Flash is the number one reason Macs crash.
By modern standards, userland code crashing the OS is an OS bug or design flaw almost by definition. At least when Microsoft blames drivers for BSODs, they're blaming kernel-mode code.
He's talking about crashes in general, not kernel panics. He addressed this at WWDC in 08 or 09, as that's when Apple announced support for making Flash a separate process on 64-bit Safari so that when Flash crashes, it just takes out the embedded Flash player on the current page, not the entire browser session.
He says in this essay that Flash is "the number one reason Macs crash", not "the number one reason Safari crashes".
Ex-Cyber wrote:It's available in H.264 because that's the most advanced industry-standard codec that Flash supports.
Wha? Those sites started implementing h.264 before Flash supported it (at least YouTube did).
They may have started implementing it before support was shipped, but I doubt that they did so before it was known that Flash would add support.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by |darc| »

Ex-Cyber wrote:He says in this essay that Flash is "the number one reason Macs crash", not "the number one reason Safari crashes".
He's not trying to talk about Safari, he's trying to say that aside from being the number one reason Safari crashes, Flash is the number one thing on the Macintosh platform that crashes.
Ex-Cyber wrote:They may have started implementing it before support was shipped, but I doubt that they did so before it was known that Flash would add support.
They did so specifically because of the iPhone YouTube app Google and Apple developed together, which shipped on the first iPhone and uses H.264. It has nothing to do with Flash's support.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

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Not as intense, but still
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Also, I discussed a brief point with darc last night about how some parts of the letter seem to be misinterpreted if I end up caring enough I'll post my thoughts later.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Eviltaco64X »

I'd actually love to see video streaming websites adopt HTML5 since Adobe still has yet to release Flash for 64-bit browsers...

Well, at least Flash for Linux x64 is in Alpha!
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Ex-Cyber »

|darc| wrote:
Ex-Cyber wrote:He says in this essay that Flash is "the number one reason Macs crash", not "the number one reason Safari crashes".
He's not trying to talk about Safari, he's trying to say that aside from being the number one reason Safari crashes, Flash is the number one thing on the Macintosh platform that crashes.
If that's what he's trying to say, then he should have written that. Calling Flash a "reason Macs crash" suggests that it's the whole system that's crashing, not just one application.
They did so specifically because of the iPhone YouTube app Google and Apple developed together, which shipped on the first iPhone and uses H.264. It has nothing to do with Flash's support.
I have a hard time believing that it's totally unrelated, considering that the vast majority of YouTube's users use the Flash video player and that Flash support for H.264 appeared publicly a couple months after the iPhone launch. Without Flash supporting H.264, they'd presumably have to keep the video streams around in both old and new codecs. Maybe YouTube/Google can afford that, but I'd expect that they'd try to avoid it if possible. Now, it's entirely plausible that Adobe supported H.264 as a reaction to Apple's move, but I don't think we necessarily know what was going on behind the scenes among the three companies.
Eviltaco64X wrote:I'd actually love to see video streaming websites adopt HTML5 since Adobe still has yet to release Flash for 64-bit browsers...
I'd like to see them adopt HTML5 video because it's supported directly by browser vendors and supports better integration with web pages (and, as Jobs mentioned, Flash Player has a pretty crappy track record on security and performance). I'm not sure there's much advantage to a 64-bit browser anyway, unless you're trying to avoid a multilib setup.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Eviltaco64X »

Ex-Cyber wrote:I'm not sure there's much advantage to a 64-bit browser anyway, unless you're trying to avoid a multilib setup.
I'd say speed is Minefield's advantage over something like Firefox. It's definitely the case for me.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

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Ex-Cyber wrote:I have a hard time believing that it's totally unrelated, considering that the vast majority of YouTube's users use the Flash video player and that Flash support for H.264 appeared publicly a couple months after the iPhone launch. Without Flash supporting H.264, they'd presumably have to keep the video streams around in both old and new codecs. Maybe YouTube/Google can afford that, but I'd expect that they'd try to avoid it if possible.
As far as I remember, Adobe simply released a Flash player update around August 2007, with no prior notice, which added h.264 support. At that time, YouTube was already using h.264 for the iPhone app. However, YouTube didn't start using h.264 through Flash until March 2008.

I'd have thought that, if YouTube had known in advance that Flash would support h.264, they'd have supported it immediately.

Besides, YouTube do keep all the videos in multiple formats. They still have the older .flv format laying around, in addition to the newer h.264 format. Last time I checked, they were still encoding new videos in this format.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Ex-Cyber »

BlackAura wrote:I'd have thought that, if YouTube had known in advance that Flash would support h.264, they'd have supported it immediately.
I thought they pretty much did, but I guess I got my dates mixed up.
BlackAura wrote:They still have the older .flv format laying around, in addition to the newer h.264 format.
Geez, I didn't even realize that they still kept the containerized files around; I thought they had switched entirely to a streaming protocol for some reason.
Eviltaco64X wrote:I'd say speed is Minefield's advantage over something like Firefox. It's definitely the case for me.
That probably says more about the improvements that have made their way into Minefield than it does about 32-bit vs. 64-bit binaries.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by |darc| »

Ex-Cyber wrote:
BlackAura wrote:They still have the older .flv format laying around, in addition to the newer h.264 format.
Geez, I didn't even realize that they still kept the containerized files around; I thought they had switched entirely to a streaming protocol for some reason.
YouTube is pretty insane when you think about it. They also save the originally uploaded file format, which can be very large because they allow the filesize to be up to 20 gigabytes per video, with a 10 minute time limit. They also store in at least 6 formats according to Wikipedia.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Nico0020 »

I'm ready to see flash taken over by HTML5 (especially as a linux user on my laptop). Especially for streaming video, though only thing i can view HTML5 in is google chrome on youtube. More sites need to adopt it.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by Quzar »

|darc| wrote:
Ex-Cyber wrote:
BlackAura wrote:They still have the older .flv format laying around, in addition to the newer h.264 format.
Geez, I didn't even realize that they still kept the containerized files around; I thought they had switched entirely to a streaming protocol for some reason.
YouTube is pretty insane when you think about it. They also save the originally uploaded file format, which can be very large because they allow the filesize to be up to 20 gigabytes per video, with a 10 minute time limit. They also store in at least 6 formats according to Wikipedia.
It's at *most* 6 formats (excluding original uploaded file). If you upload something that is 320x240 it will only be in two or three (I'm not sure on if they keep flv and mp4 for every file..., if so it's not really user accessible afaik) formats. It's only if you upload a 1080p file that you get those 6 formats.
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Re: Steve Jobs on Flash

Post by BlackAura »

I just checked a video uploaded on April 30th.

As expected, it had the current standard (format 34) and high quality (format 35) versions, a 720p version (format 22). Those are all the h.264 based formats, two of which are in an .FLV container, and one was in an MPEG-4 container.

It also had format 5 - the old standard quality version, FLV container, with the old FLV video codec (which was a crippled version of MPEG-4 ASP / DivX, basically).

That's for a video uploaded only a few days ago. So I'd say they are still encoding everything in that format. If I had to guess, it's probably to support systems with a non-upgradable embedded version of Flash (or Flash Lite, which is still stuck with the same feature set as Flash 7). Phones and games consoles, probably.

Oh yes... YouTube still uses HTTP progressive download, rather than any streaming protocol.
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