Big news: Castro resigns!

[|darc|]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/ ... index.html

O_O

[not just souLLy now]

Here's hoping the American Government don't take this as a chance to go in and fuck up a country that's running very nicely

[Lartrak]

Interesting to see where Cuba goes from here. It does seem hard to imagine that Raul can carry on for that long. Castro is so eponymous... It'll also be interesting to see what will happen if they introduce more democracy. If I was a Cuban, I'd certainly want a more democratic form (Castro is not exactly a nice guy), but at the same time I'd still like a strong government. Cuba could become corrupted by US influence, which could lead to the collapse of the handful of nice things Castro did manage to put together in his time - the best medical system in Latin and South America and a solid educational system.

[Christuserloeser]

Yeah, it will be very interesting to see what the future brings.

More democracy is always a good thing, doesn't matter whether it's in the US, Germany, Cuba or wherever.

Sad that Bush says he wants to "help the people of Cuba to realize the blessings of liberty.", but on the other hand the embargo still is kept active.

- Mr. Bush, tear down that wall.

[bloodite]

well, I hope Raul is as strong as his brother otherwise were likely to see another CIA attempt at overthrowing Cuba. These last 50 years must've been a real slap in the face for the U.S. Im frankly sad that after Raul that Cuba will become another puppet country.

[Kevin Beckman]

Here's hoping the American Government don't take this as a chance to go in and fuck up a country that's running very nicely

Running very nicely? By what standards?

[pixel]

We should go fuck around that Pork Bay thing.

[JKKDARK]

Here's hoping the American Government don't take this as a chance to go in and fuck up a country that's running very nicely

yeah because communism works perfectly in 2008

[Lartrak]

Here's hoping the American Government don't take this as a chance to go in and fuck up a country that's running very nicely

Running very nicely? By what standards?

Well, imagine how well the US would be doing if suddenly 90% of our trading partners put an embargo on us. And kept it for 40 years.

All things considered, the Cuban situation isn't nearly as bad as it could be. It's a hell of a lot better off than, say, North Korea. It's also better off than Vietnam (though Vietnam actually isn't doing that terribly either, from what I've read). Perhaps "very nicely" is a bit much, but Castro has also been introducing free market reforms over time, though not as quickly as China has been. They'd probably have been doing very well if the US would trade with them and allow tourism over there.

On a side note, who thinks Castro is actually dead? A lot of people seem to think that, which is why they announced his resignation at such a weird time. Of course, Castro COULD have been dead for months - there's really no way to know.

[Christuserloeser]

There's only one option I see: Cuba sticks with socialism, but enhances its democratic structures and maybe to a degree further opens its economy for foreign companies where possible (embargo, etc. pp.). - Else I fear they might loose everything they've achieved so far.

Here's hoping the American Government don't take this as a chance to go in and fuck up a country that's running very nicely

yeah because communism works perfectly in 2008

??? - What would "2008" have to do with "communism" ? - Seriously, if you support the idea or not, it doesn't have anything to do with a date.

[Covar]

Here's hoping the American Government don't take this as a chance to go in and fuck up a country that's running very nicely

How do you explain Miami then?

[pixel]

Here's hoping the American Government don't take this as a chance to go in and fuck up a country that's running very nicely

How do you explain Miami then?

INFIDELS!

[Quzar]

Inice things Castro did manage to put together in his time - the best medical system in Latin and South America and a solid educational system.

If you seriously think that the education and health care in Cuba is good by any means, you're quite insane. The only way the education system could be considered good is if you simply believe the fact that Cuba says so, as there is no outside review.

Yeah, it will be very interesting to see what the future brings.

More democracy is always a good thing, doesn't matter whether it's in the US, Germany, Cuba or wherever.

Sad that Bush says he wants to "help the people of Cuba to realize the blessings of liberty.", but on the other hand the embargo still is kept active.

- Mr. Bush, tear down that wall.

To revoke the embargo would be approval of a communist regime.

Here's hoping the American Government don't take this as a chance to go in and fuck up a country that's running very nicely

Running very nicely? By what standards?

Well, imagine how well the US would be doing if suddenly 90% of our trading partners put an embargo on us. And kept it for 40 years.

All things considered, the Cuban situation isn't nearly as bad as it could be. It's a hell of a lot better off than, say, North Korea. It's also better off than Vietnam (though Vietnam actually isn't doing that terribly either, from what I've read). Perhaps "very nicely" is a bit much, but Castro has also been introducing free market reforms over time, though not as quickly as China has been. They'd probably have been doing very well if the US would trade with them and allow tourism over there.

On a side note, who thinks Castro is actually dead? A lot of people seem to think that, which is why they announced his resignation at such a weird time. Of course, Castro COULD have been dead for months - there's really no way to know.

The only reason Cuba has survived the embargo is because it is one of the most resource rich nations in our hemisphere. Not to mention the fact that the people flee the country regularly, and since the 80s they have allowed money to come in. I know quite a few people who go to Cuba taking money and goods to relatives. Emptying all the prisons at the same time was a great help too.

I'm of the opinion that Castro did die in early 07, and it wasn't reported because Raul hadn't yet been promoted into the public spotlight well enough. It was only in late 06 that people were encouraged to hold portraits of Raul alongside Fidel in public demonstrations, and that he has been brought into the spotlight. Cuba hasn't survived due to good politics, it's been almost entirely based on Fidel's Charisma and the US' constant playing into the david vs goliath scenario that he fed on. Had Raul had to take actual power without first having been pushed forth as a hero of the country, everything would have fallen apart.

[Lartrak]

If you seriously think that the education and health care in Cuba is good by any means, you're quite insane.

[/quote]

What are you basing this off of?

I can tell you the Cuban people are about as healthy as Americans, despite being much poorer. And they're better off than just about any other country in Latin and South America, which is what we should really be comparing them to. Their life expectancy is 75/79, nearly exactly the same as the US. Their doctor to patient ratio is 1 to 175. It's not to say it is perfect, but I don't understand your denigration of it. Yes, there are some very major issues, like a shortage of some basic supplies and and bad conditions in hospitals. But still, it's obviously a high priority and they have done a lot with few resources.

http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/n ... 232628.stm

Likewise, their students do well in tests, ranking amongst the best in Latin America. And they get free education at all levels.

http://fcis.oise.utoronto.ca/~daniel_sc ... 8cuba.html

So, what exactly is so terrible about their health and education systems, as compared to other countries in the region with similar resources?

[Stormwatch]

Fidel is out.
Vista is out.
Prey is out.

Still waiting for...

[Quzar]

If you seriously think that the education and health care in Cuba is good by any means, you're quite insane.

What are you basing this off of?

I can tell you the Cuban people are about as healthy as Americans, despite being much poorer. And they're better off than just about any other country in Latin and South America, which is what we should really be comparing them to. Their life expectancy is 75/79, nearly exactly the same as the US. Their doctor to patient ratio is 1 to 175. It's not to say it is perfect, but I don't understand your denigration of it. Yes, there are some very major issues, like a shortage of some basic supplies and and bad conditions in hospitals. But still, it's obviously a high priority and they have done a lot with few resources.

http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/n ... 232628.stm

Likewise, their students do well in tests, ranking amongst the best in Latin America. And they get free education at all levels.

http://fcis.oise.utoronto.ca/~daniel_sc ... 8cuba.html

So, what exactly is so terrible about their health and education systems, as compared to other countries in the region with similar resources?[/quote]

For education, the way they get so many great students (also, that article is 10 years old), is that they deny education to the idiots. I KNOW plenty of rafters, being from Miami, and they confirm it. One guy came over with 3 kids. In Cuba one was allowed to go to school, another attended baseball training, and the third just helped around the house. While this may not be typical, it is common for kids who are interested in any particular profession (specifically things like boxing or baseball) spend 24/7 in training camps for it.

Yes, those who get into school end up learning a LOT and well. One guy I know was trained in computer tech and networking. Came here and was able to get certifications before most other papers. The problem is that they don't let just anyone go to school.

As for health care, anecdotally it's the same. Anyone who gets service gets great service, but everyone else gets nothing. The biggest problem I have with all outsider first hand sources is that they tend to seem guided through their evaluations. WHO's numbers are from a Cuban governmental organization, not an independent office (unless I'm reading incorrectly).

What do those numbers mean if for every child born in a hospital, 10 are born in the home, never registered, and die young? My example is exaggerated, but there is just no oversight to verify any of this, and a long precedent of lies and secrecy that taints any sort of good faith.

[Christuserloeser]

Sad that Bush says he wants to "help the people of Cuba to realize the blessings of liberty.", but on the other hand the embargo still is kept active.

To revoke the embargo would be approval of a communist regime.

Wow, you're right: That would be horrible! Better starve 'em out. I am sure that'll make the world a better place.

As for health care, anecdotally it's the same. Anyone who gets service gets great service, but everyone else gets nothing.

If you seriously think that, you're quite insane. The only way the education and health care system could be considered bad is if you simply believe the fact that the US says so, as there is no outside review.

[Nico0020]

I'm so glad bush is going to be out of office soon. We have enough trouble keeping track of our government and its problems, not to mention the middle east BS we got ourselves into to even think about Cuba. The blessing or democracy? if any country wants democracy it will fight for it itself. Thats how it should be, its not something that can be given. Communism may not be the best thing in 2008, but it is no where near what it used to be.

[butters]

I'm so glad bush is going to be out of office soon. We have enough trouble keeping track of our government and its problems, not to mention the middle east BS we got ourselves into to even think about Cuba. The blessing or democracy? if any country wants democracy it will fight for it itself. Thats how it should be, its not something that can be given. Communism may not be the best thing in 2008, but it is no where near what it used to be.

You think Bush is bad? Just wait until the south elects McCain. I have conservative leanings, but I can't stand McCain.

[Christuserloeser]

While its a noble thought, I am not sure if its possible for certain countries/regions to fight for democracy all by themselves... Fact however is that certain actions don't actually support democracy but possibly might even strengthen a country's regime.

The embargo on Cuba did nothing to enhance Cuba's democratic structures. In fact it suppressed them.


Also, I would like to point out that democracy has not much to do with a country's economics (socialism, communism, capitalism, whatever). The ultimate democracy would be communist-anarchism but only a few important key elements of it actually are practiced in today's society. Examples would be Cooperatives, Cummunes, but also the The GNU Project and the Free Software movement.