Emulator Legality Discussion

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:28 am

ThePerfectK wrote:As for the second point - I know it's a sweeping generalization, but assuming IGN or 1up picks up coverage, you'd want to stay out of as much gray area as possible. So, while I personally understand the legallity of these issues, and that they're perfectly fine, a bigger website like IGN might frown on something like this.

So, yeah, sorry, but no gray area topics.

A cart loading emulator wouldn't be grey-area though. Emulators are more legal than games using copyrighted characters and material. Emulators have been found to be legal in court. Clones of games using copyrighted characters have been found to be illegal in court. If the emulator didn't allow for the loading of ROM images, there shouldn't be any problem at all with any website.

ThePerfectK · Post by **ThePerfectK** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:33 pm

MetaFox wrote:
ThePerfectK wrote:As for the second point - I know it's a sweeping generalization, but assuming IGN or 1up picks up coverage, you'd want to stay out of as much gray area as possible. So, while I personally understand the legallity of these issues, and that they're perfectly fine, a bigger website like IGN might frown on something like this.

So, yeah, sorry, but no gray area topics.
A cart loading emulator wouldn't be grey-area though. Emulators are more legal than games using copyrighted characters and material. Emulators have been found to be legal in court. Clones of games using copyrighted characters have been found to be illegal in court. If the emulator didn't allow for the loading of ROM images, there shouldn't be any problem at all with any website.

I understand all this - you're preaching to the choir. Emulators how a certain stigma about them, though, which gives them the illusion of being illegal. I know it sucks, but I stand by my claim of no emulators.

besides, this is mainly supposed to be a games thing, with applications taking a back seat.

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:09 pm

ThePerfectK wrote:I understand all this - you're preaching to the choir. Emulators how a certain stigma about them, though, which gives them the illusion of being illegal. I know it sucks, but I stand by my claim of no emulators.

Well, that stinks. I had an idea for a cart loading system that dumped the ROM from a cartridge into the KallistiOS romdisk, and autobooted the game without giving the user any hint that it's through an emulator - sort of like the Gameboy Player, Super Gameboy, or the unofficial cartridge players like the Trident 64.

Though, I doubt I'd have time to get it done by May anyway, since I've got my hands busy with getting my magazine demo disc out, and getting stuff for the DreamCon done by the beginning of June.

It would have been neat to get that project noticed by the mainstream press via your expo, but alas - it does not seem like it will come to be.

I do think that you should change your strict "no emulator" policy to cover certain strictly legal circumstances like what I mentioned above - but in the end it is your decision, and I have no choice but to accept it.

CKRNZ · Post by **CKRNZ** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:50 am

emulators technically should be illegal..for they are the means by which people bootleg and play many games without an original system and/or game.

many would say that if you want an snes system with games..buy them.

why have an emulator when you can have the real system? for the simple reason that it is the means to bootleg and play illegal game images..some would argue that they can be used with legally owned games that have been "backed up"...i find that argument weak at best.

Darksaviour69 · Post by **Darksaviour69** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:10 am

Guns technically should be illegal..for they are the means by which people kill other people

many would say that if you want to kill some one you should get a knife

why have guns when you can have the real knifes? ..some would argue that they can be used for defence and sport...i find that argument weak at best.

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:07 am

CKRNZ wrote:emulators technically should be illegal..for they are the means by which people bootleg and play many games without an original system and/or game... why have an emulator when you can have the real system?

Emulators can also be used to test games that you are creating for a system. Many people use Chankast to test games they are creating for the Dreamcast, for instance. Also, when the emulator has a debugger, it's a great tool for testing software - even more so than the real hardware.

As an added bonus, when the game that is being created by emulator assistance is finished, the emulators can then be used by the public to play those games.

bender · Post by **bender** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:41 pm

CKRNZ wrote:emulators technically should be illegal..for they are the means by which people bootleg and play many games without an original system and/or game.

- An emulator, emulates the hardware (a lot of electronic components), nothing more. Is having the pirated software what is illegal.
- A PC lets you to run pirated software. So having a PC for you (a lot of electronic components) is illegal

CaptTrips · Post by **CaptTrips** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:43 pm

The Constitution provides Congress may make needful Copyright and Patent Laws, and as is always the case, They have.

But such Power was only delegated by the States to secure Pro-motion of useful Arts and Sciences, Not Computer Sciences nor the Regression of Society through the Arts.

Any one ever consider, We place no Authority in Our Union, but they do Place it over us?

Post by **Christuserloeser** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:03 pm

MetaFox wrote:Clones of games using copyrighted characters have been found to be illegal in court.

Source ?

They are -not- illegal until they are sold. Using trademarks or otherwise copyrighted material without attempting to make profit out of it would fall under "fair use".

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:27 pm

Christuserloeser wrote:
MetaFox wrote:Clones of games using copyrighted characters have been found to be illegal in court.
They are -not- illegal until they are sold. Using trademarks or otherwise copyrighted material without attempting to make profit out of it would fall under "fair use".

Well, yeah. After they are sold was what I was talking about. No company is going to spend the money for court fees to go after someone releasing something for free. Even so, they're still illegal - it's just that companies don't usually do anything about them. They have though, plenty of times - with cease and desist orders. There's always a bunch of whining when this happens, but the companies are well within their legal rights to do so. "Fair use" applies to screenshots for the media and audio snippets and the like. It never applies to using characters, music, storylines, etc. in a game or other production. That's intellectual property theft - not for profit IP theft, but it's still theft.

Ex-Cyber · Post by **Ex-Cyber** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:58 pm

Metafox wrote:Clones of games using copyrighted characters have been found to be illegal in court.

Do you have a reference to a ruling that actually says that characters themselves are copyrightable? I was under the impression that only portrayals/renderings of a character are copyrightable, while the name can be a trademark... perhaps this varies by country though, since I don't think Berne goes into that much detail about what is/isn't subject to copyright.

Metafox wrote:intellectual property theft

*gag*

Post by **Christuserloeser** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:08 pm

MetaFox wrote:No company is going to spend the money for court fees to go after someone releasing something for free. Even so, they're still illegal - it's just that companies don't usually do anything about them.

Let me reword it a little and I'd agree with you:

"No company is going to spend the money for court fees to go after someone releasing something for free. Even so, they're still copyrighted (e.g. for all commercial purposes)."

However, I think using copyrighted material isn't anywhere as cool as creating something that's entirely done by yourself. It's just soooo much more ...original!

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:40 pm

Christuserloeser wrote:"No company is going to spend the money for court fees to go after someone releasing something for free. Even so, they're still copyrighted (e.g. for all commercial purposes)."

Copyright does not apply to only commercial use. It applies to any use. If I went out and took pieces of "The DaVinci Code", rearranged them, added bits of my own, and then released it for free on the internet, it would still be copyright infringement.

Ex-Cyber wrote:
Metafox wrote:Clones of games using copyrighted characters have been found to be illegal in court.
Do you have a reference to a ruling that actually says that characters themselves are copyrightable? I was under the impression that only portrayals/renderings of a character are copyrightable, while the name can be a trademark... perhaps this varies by country though, since I don't think Berne goes into that much detail about what is/isn't subject to copyright.

I was actually referring to The Great Giana Sisters, which used edits of Nintendo characters and identical level layout.

CKRNZ · Post by **CKRNZ** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:57 pm

using an emulator to test a game under development is not a valid use of an emulator..thats what dev kits are made by the system creators for.some of these arguments for emu legality are weaker than some of the arguments ive read here about browser hacking...

BlackAura · Post by **BlackAura** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:02 pm

CKRNZ wrote:using an emulator to test a game under development is not a valid use of an emulator..thats what dev kits are made by the system creators for.some

Wrong. There is absolutely nothing console manufacturers can do (well, could do - the DMCA is a bit of a pain in the ass these days) to prevent unauthorised third-party development.

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:02 pm

CKRNZ wrote:using an emulator to test a game under development is not a valid use of an emulator..thats what dev kits are made by the system creators for.some of these arguments for emu legality are weaker than some of the arguments ive read here about browser hacking...

We are legally allowed to create software with reverse engineered development kits due to the ruling of "Sega vs. Accolade" which found that Sega was preventing competition due to making it's system proprietary. So, the argument that emulation eases development is indeed valid.

CKRNZ · Post by **CKRNZ** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:06 pm

well third party hacking..not development..is what caused the system to die. more so than poor management...until a line can be drawn in the sand by the courts..international or otherwise..that states what "third-parties" can and cant do..i'll have to go with the companies rights on this one...infringement is infringment...

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:09 pm

CKRNZ wrote:well third party hacking..not development.

No. Accolade was making games for the Sega Genesis without an official Sega development license. Sega sued Accolade. The courts found in Accolade's favour. There's your line right there.

CKRNZ · Post by **CKRNZ** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:11 pm

thats not the line im talking about..im talking about hacking a system to death..potentially destroying valid companies in the process..thats the line im talking about...just so a few net geeks can play the classics on the newest system out.

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:14 pm

CKRNZ wrote:thats not the line im talking about..im talking about hacking a system to death..potentially destroying valid companies in the process..thats the line im talking about...

So, the truth comes out. You're not talking about legality at all - you're just ticked off that pirates destroyed the Dreamcast and are taking it out on us. Go take your teen angst to Echelon or Utopia. We had no hand in that. What we are doing is legal and protected by law.

Emulator Legality Discussion

On an aside