split from: Smash Pack programmer wanted Echelon to release...

[Alc]

removed

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[|darc|]

removed

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Hah, that's pretty funny I wasn't the only one to find this, but I'm going to have to remove the link because it's a warez blog. Not that I have any qualms with doing it; I'm 100% sure that his source for the GD-ROM dump is TOSEC, as he has a track record of taking TOSEC sets and ripping/rereleasing them under his own name. Let's just say we've had a run-in or two.

[Xiaopang]

he has a track record of taking TOSEC sets and ripping/rereleasing them under his own name

and who keeps track of this record? you? i know you have a habit of taking credit by slapping tosec onto everything that is being dumped nowadays, even though you know that there are freelance dumpers out there. let's not forget that there are also people that supply me but not tosec (any more) and last but not least i have a game library at my disposal myself and it's certainly bigger than just 6 games... as for the re-releasing part...i never re-released any tosec dumps. i release my rips and sure i slap my name on it so that people know where they come from...

as for labelling my lil blog as warez blog: nice way at being a hypocrite. i don't offer any downloads there and if talking about games is already incriminating you better start with this place here, as you guys here talk about the same stuff i do. on the other hand you link to your forum which is dedicated to copying copyprotected games... welcome to the warez scene! since you're an admin here you sure can bend the rules, but that doesn't make it right...not that i would care though. anyway, this will be my only post here, as i don't wanna be affiliated with a bunch of hypocrites that don't have enough spine to actually stand by their habits of using backups themselves

[|darc|]

i know you have a habit of taking credit by slapping tosec onto everything that is being dumped nowadays, even though you know that there are freelance dumpers out there.

There is absolutely not one dump in the TOSEC set whose checksum was not provided by a TOSEC member. Remember, TOSEC requires at least two dumps for verification purposes, and one of these has always come from a TOSEC member. In addition, while they were dumping, I was in communication in private with both Yuki and BoboPJ64, and they were well aware they they were creating dumps that would go into TOSEC. We have stolen nothing. Community dumps have only ever been used for verification purposes.

let's not forget that there are also people that supply me but not tosec (any more) and last but not least i have a game library at my disposal myself and it's certainly bigger than just 6 games... as for the re-releasing part...i never re-released any tosec dumps. i release my rips and sure i slap my name on it so that people know where they come from...

If you are trying to suggest that you haven't created a rip with a TOSEC dump then you are a liar. Or are you trying to say that your warez rips that appear on the internet just days after they've been added to TOSEC is just a coincidence?

The 6-game dumper joke has gotten old; you don't see anything that goes on behind the scenes so how do you have any idea what I've contributed to the project and what I haven't?

as for labelling my lil blog as warez blog: nice way at being a hypocrite. i don't offer any downloads there and if talking about games is already incriminating you better start with this place here, as you guys here talk about the same stuff i do.

This is a site dedicated to homebrew software on the Dreamcast. We don't discuss warez releases here. This story has meaning to this community so it got posted here.

on the other hand you link to your forum which is dedicated to copying copyprotected games... welcome to the warez scene! since you're an admin here you sure can bend the rules, but that doesn't make it right...not that i would care though.

Here's a challenge: find a place where I posted a link to my forum. Also, depending on where you live, backing up a copy of your game is completely legal; in any case what TOSEC does is morally sound. There is nothing warez on my forums.

No one suggested that members of the community here don't use backups. It's just against the rules to discuss piracy.

anyway, this will be my only post here, as i don't wanna be affiliated with a bunch of hypocrites that don't have enough spine to actually stand by their habits of using backups themselves

What a tremendous loss.

[Christuserloeser]

Well, from what I understand, backing up games and sharing them isn't piracy. If you sell these games, that would be piracy.

as for labelling my lil blog as warez blog: nice way at being a hypocrite. i don't offer any downloads there and if talking about games is already incriminating you better start with this place here

[...]

anyway, this will be my only post here, as i don't wanna be affiliated with a bunch of hypocrites that don't have enough spine to actually stand by their habits of using backups themselves

That's been a problem that can be tracked back to this site's early days when the Dreamcast still saw commercial support by a few bigger companies and SEGA itself. You have to understand that the site's mission was to create a serious, legal and homebrew friendly enviroment where people can develop homebrew software for Dreamcast. Personally I would say that the community here did achieve a lot, and all of the commercial releases still in the works do take advantage of that.

However, personally I have my doubts as to why this sharade should be held up.

AFAIK, the emulator itself was freely distributed by Sega of Japan.

With no ROMs?

You could download them from SEGA of Japan's service, much like with Wii's Virtual Console. They offered this service for Mega Drive and PC-Engine.

By the way, it occurred to me that being freely available doesn't imply in being freely redistributable.

?

This reminds me of when Sega told cheatah to take down the Sonic Adventure 2 demo from the site.

How would you know it was SEGA, and not anyone else ?

Either way, there's nothing they could do against you sharing a demo of SA2. - well, other than asking you to take it down.

[DCDayDreamer]

I know I'll get flamed to hell and back after this post, but this is one strange thread you've got here.

We don't discuss warez releases here

This very topic is about a warez release, ok, so you're actual dump isn't the same set of files, but the game itself is. Don't get me wrong here, I'm extremely grateful for the info you've posted, but perhaps if the info would have been posted elsewhere it would have been a bit more discreet. This site has had controversy in the past with files from the same game, it even hosted the files released by the group, and in light of recent events, maybe it would have been better to let this info do the rounds via other sources.

Well, from what I understand, backing up games and sharing them isn't piracy. If you sell these games, that would be piracy.

There used to be ships full of sailors who flew a skull and crossbones as a flag, once they'd stolen cargo, they'd share it amongst themselves...

looks like the historians got it all wrong by calling them pirates then.

i don't wanna be affiliated with a bunch of hypocrites

Hypocricy is probably a very good one word description of what's happening with dumping GD's in general, but let the one without sin cast the first stone.

[Christuserloeser]

Well, from what I understand, backing up games and sharing them isn't piracy. If you sell these games, that would be piracy.

There used to be ships full of sailors who flew a skull and crossbones as a flag, once they'd stolen cargo, they'd share it amongst themselves...

looks like the historians got it all wrong by calling them pirates then.

Well, what if the pirates made a digitial copy of the cargo...?

[|darc|]

By the way, it occurred to me that being freely available doesn't imply in being freely redistributable.

?

Just because a piece of software was given to you for free does not mean you have a license to give it away for free.

How would you know it was SEGA, and not anyone else ?

Either way, there's nothing they could do against you sharing a demo of SA2. - well, other than asking you to take it down.

Cheatah got a cease and desist notice from Sega for sharing the SA2 demo here. What do you mean they couldn't do anything for sharing it? Sega owns the distribution rights to the demo; that it has fewer levels means absolutely nothing to the law. They could sue you to hell for distributing the demo just like they could for distributing the real thing.

We don't discuss warez releases here

This very topic is about a warez release, ok, so you're actual dump isn't the same set of files, but the game itself is. Don't get me wrong here, I'm extremely grateful for the info you've posted, but perhaps if the info would have been posted elsewhere it would have been a bit more discreet. This site has had controversy in the past with files from the same game, it even hosted the files released by the group, and in light of recent events, maybe it would have been better to let this info do the rounds via other sources.

What I meant was that we don't discuss warez releases for the sake of discussing warez releases. This topic isn't necessarily about the warez release itself, but Gary Lake. I don't see the point of specifically not allowing this story to be mentioned here, because it isn't really about the warez itself.

Hypocricy is probably a very good one word description of what's happening with dumping GD's in general, but let the one without sin cast the first stone.

Hypocrisy would be to think SNES ROMs are okay to discuss in 2001 but think GD-ROM dump discussion is off-limits in 2008. Sharing them is, of course, not allowed here, but they aren't shared here nor on my other forum. Following the rules here doesn't make me a hypocrite unless I'm outright bashing people who share GD-ROMs, which you haven't seen me do.

[DCDayDreamer]

Hypocricy is probably a very good one word description of what's happening with dumping GD's in general, but let the one without sin cast the first stone.

Hypocrisy would be to think SNES ROMs are okay to discuss in 2001 but think GD-ROM dump discussion is off-limits in 2008. Sharing them is, of course, not allowed here, but they aren't shared here nor on my other forum. Following the rules here doesn't make me a hypocrite unless I'm outright bashing people who share GD-ROMs, which you haven't seen me do.

Like I pointed out in my opening statement, I knew I'd get flamed for posting in this thread.

I didn't call you a hypocrite darc, I quoted Xiaopang and replied direct to him in my post which you've quoted above, It was Xiaopang that called you a hypocrite. By what right did he have to do so?, hence my line from the bible - 'let the one without sin cast the first stone', and I wouldn't exactly call Xiaopang guilt free enough to be judging others.

I'm not entirely guilt free myself, you don't have to be a genius to work out what I've leaked into the DC 'homebrew' scene, but what the hell, my intentions were good and that's all that matters, correct? .

[Ex-Cyber]

Like I pointed out in my opening statement, I knew I'd get flamed for posting in this thread.

If you think anything directed at you in this thread qualifies as a flame, there's stuff in the Usenet archives that would make you faint.

[Roofus]

Well, I think you are confused a little bit about this. Echelon certainly isn't Sega. Echelon is responsible for releasing about 200 Dreamcast games for free on the internet, and they plagued Sega for a very long time and they are arguably responsible for killing the Dreamcast's profits (of course, if they hadn't, someone else would've).

By the time this release came out, GD-ROMs had already been cracked and pirate games were pouring out for a while, and the console emulation scene was already on the Dreamcast, though it was small.

I was wondering why the file was called "echelon.txt." That makes sense if they were active before the Smash Pack. Good find.

[Alc]

Well, from what I understand, backing up games and sharing them isn't piracy. If you sell these games, that would be piracy.

What country are you from, just out of interest? Sharing copyright material without permission from the copyright owner is illegal just about everywhere... how've you managed to miss the last decade of high-profile legal battles over file sharing?

Anyway, sorry if linking to that blog constitutes some kind of breach of the rules. It seemed kind of relevant, and given the topic, I'd suggest the pot may be calling the kettle black, but that's just me. It wasn't my intention to stir up bad blood, so apologies darc.

[FamilyGuy]

Ho man everybody use backups, everybody use homebrew, almost everybody know about Dumpcast, and everybody once downloaded a file with a "name related to ladder" written somewhere.

Stop bitching and let it be.

People looking for problems should simply say nothing.
As long as you don't distribute roms/isos of current gen console, or as long as you don't sell backups, you won't get in trouble !
It might be illegal though, but it's also illegal to drink underage and who didn't do it ?

FG

[Christuserloeser]

Well, from what I understand, backing up games and sharing them isn't piracy. If you sell these games, that would be piracy.

What country are you from, just out of interest? Sharing copyright material without permission from the copyright owner is illegal just about everywhere...

Is that so ? ...or is that what they want you/us to believe ? (not a rhetoric question)

[|darc|]

Well, from what I understand, backing up games and sharing them isn't piracy. If you sell these games, that would be piracy.

What country are you from, just out of interest? Sharing copyright material without permission from the copyright owner is illegal just about everywhere...

Is that so ? ...or is that what they want you/us to believe ? (not a rhetoric question)

Really, you can stop trolling now.

[Christuserloeser]

I am not sure why that'd be trolling. I am honestly confused as to why it is okay to record and share TV programs and music with friends and family, but not on the internet.

[Ex-Cyber]

Well, from what I understand, backing up games and sharing them isn't piracy. If you sell these games, that would be piracy.

What country are you from, just out of interest? Sharing copyright material without permission from the copyright owner is illegal just about everywhere...

Is that so ? ...or is that what they want you/us to believe ? (not a rhetoric question)

(1) Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall have the exclusive right of authorizing the reproduction of these works, in any manner or form.

(2) It shall be a matter for legislation in the countries of the Union to permit the reproduction of such works in certain special cases, provided that such reproduction does not conflict with a normal exploitation of the work and does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate interests of the author.

(3) Any sound or visual recording shall be considered as a reproduction for the purposes of this Convention.

Pretty much every industrialized nation on the planet is a signatory to this treaty. Unless there is an exception (e.g. fair use/fair dealing, which is typically not construed to include making copies for friends), unauthorized copying is presumed to be illegal.

[Alc]

Is that so ? ...or is that what they want you/us to believe ? (not a rhetoric question)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

I am genuinely surprised that you've managed to miss "the message" so completely. It seems like I can't go anywhere on the net without hearing about the RIAA suing another dead grandmother for downloading some MP3s on Kazaa. You can't watch a movie in the cinema without seeing the ridiculous short about how downloading movies is "stealing" (along with some vague allusion to terrorism which never made a jot of sense to me). Every DVD you buy will show up a non-skippable and stringent list of where it is legally permissable to watch the contents. Given that you have >4000 posts and are a moderator on a forum which must run into IP/copyright issues almost daily, I don't really know how you've managed to avoid a basic awareness of the legalities of digital media distribution. It's kind of endearing, actually. I wish things worked in the way you assume they do.

Ho man everybody use backups, everybody use homebrew, almost everybody know about Dumpcast, and everybody once downloaded a file with a "name related to ladder" written somewhere.

Stop bitching and let it be.

People looking for problems should simply say nothing.
As long as you don't distribute roms/isos of current gen console, or as long as you don't sell backups, you won't get in trouble !
It might be illegal though, but it's also illegal to drink underage and who didn't do it ?

FG

I assume this is directed at me, although it's hard to tell since there's nothing in my last post about whether or not people do download ISOs, and neither did I imply that it was morally abhorent. I was merely pointing out that it's illegal, and given the following posts apparently this information isn't so widely known.

[Sweater Fish]

I am not sure why that'd be trolling. I am honestly confused as to why it is okay to record and share TV programs and music with friends and family, but not on the internet.

It's not necessarily okay to copy and share TV or music. Copying an entire album or recording from subscription (i.e. cable) TV is actually illegal, it's just that the copyright holders in those cases don't usually exercise their rights by suing people who do those things.

In the U.S., recording compilations of music from different albums or recording music off the radio or programs from broadcast television have been recognized as fair use. And that point of case precedent is the crucial one. Only case precedent can settle the question of legality, especially in areas as vague as fair use. To my knowledge, there have been no court cases in the U.S. or elsewhere dealing with the copying and sharing of video games, but I'm pretty sure it would be ruled as illegal if it ever did go to court because it's much more analogous to things which are already settled as illegal than things that are recognized as fair use.

I advise breaking the law.


...word is bondage...

[Christuserloeser]

I am genuinely surprised that you've managed to miss "the message" so completely. It seems like I can't go anywhere on the net without hearing about the RIAA suing another dead grandmother for downloading some MP3s on Kazaa.

I haven't said that I'd not have heard about that. I just asked if it's the truth, and if so, what happened to these dead grandmothers later ?

In the News here in FRG they accidentally always seem to mix up news about "pirates" (people who produce e.g. DVDs and sell them) and some warez kiddies (12yo who downloads plastic pop). So basically when they tell you that they've caught another bunch of these at-least-worse-than-human-flesh-eating-Nazi-pirates, they actually mean that they've caught another bunch of pro bootleggers selling their stuff online. That's my impression from the little I noticed during the past few years (I don't watch TV).

The last real warez case I heard about was some company/ies suing a few thousand Kazaa regulars, but not a single one of them was actually convicted afaik.

Since a few months ago now, German judges/courts refuse to deal with any more cases with people downloading stuff from the internet. Could as well sue public libraries for giving the stuff away for free.


Edit: From what I remember they mentioned as a reason, was that they'd consider downloading stuff a minor crime - so, yeah, doesn't make it legal.