So, about this Sonic Lost Worlds game...

[DaMadFiddler]

...it actually looks pretty good. I'm always nervous about saying this, but I think we may be coming out of the Sonic dark ages. Generations was pretty decent; it's biggest pitfall was (ironically enough) the fact that it was saddled with legacy issues due to its "past Sonic games" theme. But its predecessor, Sonic Colors, was actually a really good game.

Looking at the footage, Sonic: Lost Worlds actually looks a lot like an evolved version of the unfinished Saturn title, Sonic Xtreme. Here's some Xtreme test footage:

And here's a Lost Worlds stage:

[cube_b3]

Aside from Black Knight and Unleashed, I have always managed to enjoy most Sonic platformers.

I think the problem with them has been that they are just rushed and feel like Beta games. I think Unleashed and Black Knight were the only ones that were just riddled with poor design choices.

Anyway I don't own a Wii U and I am not interested in this game at all.

Most of the new recent Sonic games are polished and critically well received but they are incredibly small.
Sonic 06 was the last proper Sonic game in terms of size and scope.

This game has 6 stages divided in 3 acts and 6 boss fights altogether.
It is to small in scope. It is basically modeled after Sonic X-Treme with the Tails and Knuckles sections deleted.

Sonic Adventure had more content than multiple recent games put together.

Aside from that little rant, I think the game is fairly polished and should be a fun experience similar to Colors. As long as you enjoyed Colors you would love this game.

[Specially Cork]

Wait...you enjoyed Sonic 06?

I mean, I enjoyed it in a "so bad it's good" kinda way, but you legitimately liked it?

I agree with you about content though. The gaming industry has moved on. A couple of hours worth of stages may have been enough to carry a game back in the early 90s but people expect more now - especially after Rayman Origins and Legends really raised the bar for platformers.

[not just souLLy now]

I think its time to let the license die with the shred of dignity it still has, there hasn't been a genuinely great Sonic game in at least 2 console generations and I honestly don't think anyone at Sega has a good Sonic game in them at this point. That video doesn't look great.

[DaMadFiddler]

Yes, the Genesis games were the best, and to a degree, they still haven't surpassed them. Those games have two key components that make them still stand out in memory: (A) they played a notable role in the evolution of video games, and (B) even with a few rough edges by modern standards, they still hold up today.

Most Sonic games *after* the Genesis fail one or both of these points. The Sonic Adventure games were an important evolutionary step, but they were massively flawed and would have little to no modern appeal outside of nostalgia or historical interest. They helped move game design forward, but game design has moved on. The things that were new or novel about them have not only been refined and done much better, leaving them feeling like rough drafts of games.

Sonic Heroes could have been good if the physics weren't so broken. There were some minor level design issues, leading to unexpected falls down pits and what felt like "unfair" deaths, but most of these issues stemmed from glitchy physics and poorly thought-out minor things, like boss attach patterns. (Seriously, about half the bosses in that game were far too easy and the other half felt almost broken.) The visual design was good, the triad mechanic was an interesting concept that had potential (and managed to incorporate the annoying extended cast in a way that DOESN'T detract from gameplay), the level design was pretty good, and it could have worked... if it weren't for painful issues like homing attacks not connecting properly, crazy ricochet mechanics, and broken boss fights like the team battles.

Shadow the Hedgehog was a disgusting mess that built on everything that was wrong with (and dated about) the Sonic Adventure design, and Sonic 2006 was even moreso.

The first two GBA games were good. Most of the levels (particularly in the first one) aren't especially memorable, but the gameplay at least was a slightly evolved version of the Genesis mechanics, updated with a few minor modern elements. The DS games tried to build on the GBA games, but the level design was problematic and featured far too many rails and sudden cliffs (and long stretches of text-driven cutscenes).

Secret of the Rings experimented with some new control mechanics, and could have worked well... if they didn't completely blow the GAME design. You have to spend a bunch of time between each level clicking through menus and selecting options, and each time you get a stage, you have to go back and do all the side challenges on it BEFORE you can advance to the next stage. That'd be like Sonic Adventure 2 making you complete Missions 2-5 before you can advance. Brought the game to a grinding halt; if it had been constructed in such a way that you could advance straight from one level to the next, it probably would have fared much better.

I never played Black Knight, because it just looked stupid. Same with Unleashed; once I heard that 2/3 of the game was spent as the Werehog, I had no interest.

Sonic Colors, though, actually gets it right. It's clear they drew at least aesthetic inspiration from Mario Galaxy, though the two games have very little in common. Sonic Colors does everything right, though: the story, while written for five-year-olds, is not the hastily written MESS of most previous Sonic games (beginning with Adventure), and the cutscenes are just quick (skippable!) interludes between levels. The gameplay successfully and (mostly) intuitively merges 2D and 3D gameplay, the levels are well designed, the visual design is flashy and attractive, and the "non-standard" levels actually work, rather than miring you down in broken and jury-rigged mechanics. It's also quite pretty for a Wii game. It FNALLY successfully evolves the Sonic game design into a form that feels both modern and fun, without a laundry list of exceptions and pitfalls (both literal and figurative) to overlook.

Generations is clearly built on the Colors engine, but is inferior. It's far too short, for one thing (though Sonic games tend to be short anyway), and it's got some clunky elements. The overworld is a minor hassle. The Sonic switching is an unnecessary annoyance. And some of the levels (I'm looking at you, "modern era,") are built on bad designs that result in confusing sequences and unfair pits/deaths. But all of Generations' issues are directly tied to its "history of Sonic" motif, and the resulting legacy flaws that come with those older games.



Lost Worlds: This looks like an honest attempt at game design evolution. There have been some pieces written about how 3D platformers might have evolved quite differently if Sonic Xtreme had actually come out, since design paradigms hadn't really been established yet. Well, here's a look at the road not taken. Obviously, there's no telling until it comes out whether or not this new approach actually WORKS, but it at least looks intriguing... and it also seems to mark the point where Sonic is FINALLY done playing catch-up and can actually be a part of evolving game design again. It's no longer about "making Sonic work in the modern world"; they got there with Colors and Generations. Now it's back to trying new ideas and moving game design forward, so that it could be the first Sonic title in a long time to hit both A and B above.

That's why I'm actually optimistic about this one.

[cube_b3]

I hate to disagree with you but I have to.

* I was born late in 1987. So I grew up with the old Sonic games but I didn't care much for them. I only remember beating S2 with cheats in 1996. My Megadrive days were consumed with Shinobi and Streets of Rage. So this raps up discussion of the original trilogy.

* Moving on I bought Dreamcast in 2001 and Sonic Adventure just blew me away!!! I grew up with this series! I love the adventure games much more than the Genesis ones. I haven't played SA1 recently but I did play the PS3 demo of SA2. I found it more enjoyable than Sonic Generations rendition of City Escape. I did not enjoy the Adventure Fields in SA1 and I was glad they were dumped in SA2. The writing in SA2 was also much better and say what you want about the whole MGS inspired story line the game had great character development.

So I think Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 are an amazing part of game history and evolution. It came out in 1998 and was one of the early games to have an Open World feel. Obviously Sonic Adventure was the only game to date to have it successfully.

* I skipped Heroes cause I thought it wasn't a story based game - and not worth upgrading to a new console. I found that I was correct. I will write a review for it one day....

I don't count Shadow as a part of Sonic History, mainly cause it sucks and it just shows Sega pushing Sonic Team to push out a new game every year. Unlike Sonic games Shadow is officially the only playable character. A proper 6th Gen Sonic Game needs to have atleast 3 different styles of gameplay. I don't know how you find this game to be building on Adventure. The gameplay was not based on the shooting mechanics introduced in Adventure, had it been based on Adventure games the shooting system would a least be functional.

Sonic 06: I love this game. Yes, it sucks. It has horrible load times. Everything about the game is in pre-alpha state but I can live with it. This game is built on every Sonic game released since Adventure.

> It brought the Adventure fields back - the released version of the adventure fields are obviously inferior to Adventure 1. I just imagine them as being a very early alpha representation of what they could be and avoid them. My imagination does not make them play better. But I have spent enough time in them and found stuff that would have been cool had the game been completed.
> The actual action stages are unbelievable. I got lost in Desert Ruins. Initially I blamed the bad camera angle, the bugs, the poor level design, and anything I could think of but I kept playing it and I realized soon these are the most expansive Sonic Levels to date! The level design is actually awesome and is the best I have seen in this generation.
> Epic Boss Fights - Yes the bugs and camera angles are the absolute worst here but all the bosses (except) Solaris are intuitive and fun. That is something we just can't say for 3D Sonic games. Thought Lost World will officially change the trend as the boss battles are an integral part of the stages. But they will be having atleast a couple of Boss Fights on rails.

Just check Crisis City 06

Now go and compare it to Sonic 06

>> Sonic is only running on rails in the 4th Fact in Unleashed/Colors/Generations the entire stages are played with boost and it sucks.
>> You can manually accelerate Sonic, the old fashioned way. Unleashed/Colors/Generation have a stupid boost button and Lost World actually has multiple buttons to decide speed. WHY! Why can't we control his speed with just the analog stick.
>> The Camera in 06 obviously suck, but this is the only game on the 6th Generation where we can actually control the camera angle. I like to control the camera in the game please.

* Sonic Unleashed sucked. I hated the daytime stages more than Werehog. The problem according to Sega Nerds was the annoying music that accompanied Werehog every time he went into combat, which was every 2 mins. Destroyed the progression and was overall just silly. I muted the game and actually had fun with the werehog. Compared to Sonic Adveture 1 even the daytime stages were horrible. I hated the side scrolling 2D bits as well. "I QUESTIONED WHY PEOPLE LIKED SIDE SCROLLING SONIC TO BEGIN WITH?"

> The Hub Worlds (as they are called now) were terrible as well and were by choice inferior and smaller than any of the previous adventure fields. The stage select seemed to be inspired from the warp gates from Crash Bandicoot trilogy. I am pretty sure the Adventure fields were better than standing on panels and being magically transported to the stages. Wtf?
> Many times the 3D segments would automatically go on rails and all day time boss fights are on rails a trend that doesn't seem to end.

* Sonic Colors is basically a fixed version of Unleashed and the first main game to be received well critically since Heroes. The boost speed has been reduced and some emphasis on platforming has been restored. Wisps are added for variety in Gameplay but I only enjoyed 2 of the 7 or so that were included (Drill and Flight). I still do not like the emphasis on Side Scrolling segments especially since they are not balanced. They are 80% of side scrolling segments (Just like Generations).

> I also found it extremely odd the level select had now regressed to the point of Mario 3/Super Mario World.
> The in game level design was also pretty bad with no room for exploration and suffocating as I was constantly surrounded by invisible walls akin to the Crash Bandicoot trilogy on PS1.

* Sonic Generations is a great game and it answered I raised earlier. I learned to respect Classic Sonic and the side scrolling that comes with him. I went back and played Sonic 4 and realized it was inferior to Generations. So I formally went back to the classics I finally played Sonic 1. I had actually started with Sonic 2, never really spent much time on the original. I played it on Sega Saturn and beat it via Sonic Jam and I absolutely loved it. I recently finished Sonic 2 on PSN and have resumed playing Sonic Generations.

I realize the classic game play is noticeably inferior to the Genesis games which is odd. Very very odd. I think the Physics decisions is a choice by the developers and not a flaw as we perceive. In an effort to make the game easier they don't regard physics as important.

I even enjoyed the Modern levels but the Dreamcast stages, Sonic Heroes, and Sonic 06 were all butchered. Their classic counterparts were surprisingly more faithful.

I would love for Sega to release some DLC for it. Make all the original unmodified level design for classic stages from the Genesis Era. Make faithful renditions of modern levels for the Dreamcast and Sonic 06.

Just for reference this is what City Escape plays like in Sonic Generation

>> Where is the skate board? What is worse is that the skateboard is still present in City Escape.
>> Where is the Tornada platforming segment?
>> Why the hell is Sonic stomping like Mario?
>> This looks to have segments from Crisis Core - the shittiest stage in Sonic 06 - shoved in as the Classic Act actually had most of the things (minus the skateboard) implemented and they may have wanted to avoid redundancy but I call bullshit.

So in conclusion, I might be a little older than most of the Adventure Generation. But I am proudly a part of that rather than the side scrolling classic generation. I want Adventure level variety in my game. I don't want Sonic to be transformed into multiple characters. I want multiple characters instead. I want to Fly as Tails and Explore as Knuckles and be bad ass as Shadow. These 4 characters I really like. Admittedly I would want to avoid the over crowding we faced in Heroes to 06.

I apologize in advance for grammatical errors and lack of cohesive writing.

[DaMadFiddler]

1. Crisis City is undisputably the worst level in Generations. But it's not like it was based on a gem, either. (See my earlier comment, about Generation's flaws stemming from poor source material.)

2. If I understand correctly, you didn't care for the original Genesis Sonic games but love the Adventure games (for reasons other than just nostalgia).

3. Also if I understand correctly, you play Sonic games for the story.

2+3 together pretty much put you opposite the rest of the known universe As a result, your views on the series and what it should do are also probably going to be quite different from most people's. Sorry to say it, but the things you like about Sonic games seem to be the things most people hate about Sonic games, and vice versa.

[Matisfaction]

I think its time to let the license die with the shred of dignity it still has, there hasn't been a genuinely great Sonic game in at least 2 console generations and I honestly don't think anyone at Sega has a good Sonic game in them at this point. That video doesn't look great.

Actually this is the first time that i've been interested in a Sonic game since Sonic Adventure..

[cube_b3]

1. Crisis City is undisputably the worst level in Generations. But it's not like it was based on a gem, either. (See my earlier comment, about Generation's flaws stemming from poor source material.)

2. If I understand correctly, you didn't care for the original Genesis Sonic games but love the Adventure games (for reasons other than just nostalgia).

3. Also if I understand correctly, you play Sonic games for the story.

2+3 together pretty much put you opposite the rest of the known universe As a result, your views on the series and what it should do are also probably going to be quite different from most people's. Sorry to say it, but the things you like about Sonic games seem to be the things most people hate about Sonic games, and vice versa.

haha, outside the universe?

Come on, let me try again briefly.

2) I love 3D. I think Sonic belongs in 3D. I have cousins and a 15 year year old brother as well. I saw them group up on Adventure 1 & 2. They share my views they like running full speed via 3rd person roller coaster mode instead of side scrolling. Sonic is essentially a platformer crossed with a racing game. For the purpose of my analogy let's go with Crash Bandicoot meets Crazy Taxi. Tell me how can these games play better as side scrollers in contrast to behind the back camera?

So I think I represent a demographic. A healthy one who prefers Sonic to be able to do stuff other than just boosting in 3D. We successfully did in SA1, SA2, and Heroes.

3) I agree with you there. It might be nostalgia while playing Sonic Adventure I was 14 years old and Pakistani 14 is like American 11.
That said, I some how enjoyed most of the story in 06. A game I played 4 years ago.

I obviously did not play 06 for the story. I played it specifically cause I didn't like Unleashed and wanted to try out this disaster.
End of the day I enjoyed the story, it was inferior to Adventure 2 but the character arcs were fun.

So in case you avoided it. This is princess Elise. Sonic is effectively replacing Mario in many ways by consistently rescuing the princess.

It isn't great writing, or a great arc in general but I am enjoying the way her character is responding and changing by interacting with Sonic.

The ending is just awesome. Come On! She quotes him and it is a good quote. Probably could have been translated better but I like it.

I know some of the cutscenes were uncomfortable and the true ending scene was creepy, but I really enjoyed these cut scenes. What I enjoyed more than the Sonic arc was Shadow surprisingly. Off course Shadow 05 was horrible story and gameplay. I was amazed how they managed to have Shadow do his own thing, far away from Sonic. They even gave him his own doppelganger and he went through an interesting journey.

I loved the ending and I will write spoilers about it after you view the clip:

I like to think Shadow died and his gang died in this scene.
A fitting ending.
Shadow should die in every game he is in

Though you may be write I might be outside the universe with this one.
All I am saying is that if Sonic must have voice acting and a story mode, it should be something more significant and meaningful then what we got in Unleashed/Colors/Generations.

[Skynet]

I'm 4 years older than you cube as I was born late 1983.

The 3D Sonic games are terrible when compared with the original Sonic games.

Who the hell plays Sonic for their story?

Your views on the Sonic franchise are scary and weird.

[cube_b3]

I don't play them for their story, but I have managed to enjoy them in the past and if you are going to have a voice cast and scripted story line it should have more substance then the ones we have had recently.

I am fine if they leave it out altogether but don't half ass it.

Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 had great story lines for the time and nostalgia probably blinds me or something but I loved how he escaped from the helicopter in City Escape. That said, I suppose it is quite aberrant that I managed to enjoy Sonic 06 story line.

[Specially Cork]

I completely disagree with everything cube_b3 has written.

- Sonic was never a platform/racing hybrid. The shift to that is what ruined every Sonic game in the last 15 or more years. The old Genesis games had solid platforming sections that relied on precision rather than speed.

- The story and writing in the SA games are absolutely terrible. Most cut-scenes are horribly directed, the writing is cringeworthy, and the voice-acting is amateur.

- Sonic jumping out of the helicopter was Sonic's start of a rapid decline. Suddenly dumping him in a human world back in SA1 was a grave error, and SA2's opening told us Sega had no intention of learning from their mistakes. This continued for years.

- They hit rock-bottom with Sonic 06. I can't believe you're trying to make a solid argument with those videos. He's talking to a fucking princess with a completely different art style. It's a disastrous set-up from the outset and no decent writing (it wasn't anyway) could save it.

- Sonic needs extra controls because they've never nailed it down with just the analog stick. Those pure running stages in Sonic 06 are like flinging a stick of butter down a sheet of ice.

We all have differing opinions when it comes to games, but this seems less like a difference of taste and more like we played completely different games. The Sonic franchise since Dreamcast presents a solid collection of evidence supporting the case that Sonic absolutely does not belong in 3D. The controls and camera have been mostly terrible and occasionally adequate, Sega's attempts at story-telling have been misplaced and universally awful, and the gameplay toggles between pointless autonomy or clunky frustration.

Most of all though, the increase in "scope" has been carried out in such a lazy and haphazard way that this previously solid IP has been diluted into a mascot of desperation. Werehogs? Fishing? Skateboards? Swords? Elise? What a crock of miserable shit.

It's not all been bad - but the highlights have all been deliberate steps backwards. The more distance Sega put between Sonic and their perverse vision, the better the games become.

[Matisfaction]

Sonic shouldn't speak IMO

The last Sonic game I played was SA, the last Sonic game I enjoyed was Sonic 2 (the story was more than sufficient)..

[DaMadFiddler]

Here's my master Sonic ranking, listed in order from best to worst:

EXCELLENT
1. Sonic 2
2. Sonic 3 & Knuckles (yes, I count them as one game)
3. Sonic 1
4. Sonic Colors
5. Sonic CD

DECENT
6. Sonic Advance 2
7. Sonic Advance
8. Sonic Generations
9. Sonic Pocket Adventure

FLAWED BUT PLAYABLE (or, PLAYABLE BUT FLAWED)
10. Sonic 3D Blast
11. Sonic Heroes
12. Game Gear games (I'm lumping them all together)
13. Sonic Rush
14. Sonic Rush Adventure
15. Sonic Adventure 2
16. Sonic Adventure (though as SA and SA2 continue to age, they get closer to the next category)

UTTER CRAP
17. Sonic Unleashed
18. Sonic and the Secret of the Rings
19. Sonic and the Black Knight
20. Shadow the Hedgehog
21. Sonic 2006

Obviously this isn't COMPLETELY comprehensive, as I've skipped Sonic-branded games that aren't part of the main series (e.g., Sonic Spinball, Sonic Shuffle, Sonic R, Sonic the FIghters, SegaSonic the Hedgehog) and games that are just obscure ports/updates/simplifications of other games in the series (e.g., Sonic for Game.com)

[cube_b3]

I will just reiterate my original point:

We have a generation of fans that grew up primarily on Gamecube Sonic games. Starting with Sonic Adventure 2: Battle > Sonic Adventure DX > Sonic Heroes > Shadow > Sonic 06.

3D Sonic gamers is another prevalent demographic and they do not feel the last 15 years have been everything that is wrong!

Sonic Adventure is the most sold Dreamcast game!
Sonic Adventure 2: Battle & 1 are one of the best sold Gamecube games! These games were played by a whole new generation of kids that never played the MD games.

Also note the side scrolling section in modern Sonic games such, he lacks all of his signature 2D traits such as
> falling off the cliff animation
> Building Momentum (he just boosts)
> Looking Up
> Pressing down and immediately turning into a ball
> No Spin Dash

Sure, the games haven't aged as well as the MD Trilogy, but Dreamcast games like Crazy Taxi haven't aged well either and just like Sonic Adventure they are still awesome. Can't really say anything more than this, and I am not trying to change anyone's opinion I just want you (Cork) to acknowledge a demographic that exists and is strong.

__________________________________

@ MadFiddler: Seriously? Sonic Colors is excellent?

[DaMadFiddler]

I will just reiterate my original point:

We have a generation of fans that grew up primarily on Gamecube Sonic games. Starting with Sonic Adventure 2: Battle > Sonic Adventure DX > Sonic Heroes > Shadow > Sonic 06.

3D Sonic gamers is another prevalent demographic and they do not feel the last 15 years have been everything that is wrong!

I don't buy the argument that it's just a generational thing. Eva (my fiance) was born in 1988, her first systems were the N64 and Dreamcast so she doesn't have that "2D nostalgia" some of us born a few years earlier might have, and she's the first to point out how flawed the Adventure games are; her interest in them is mostly nostalgic. But she still suffers through broken gameplay mechanics and cringes every time there's a cutscene.

Colors is good. Most of the 3D Sonic games have not been. Adventure was popular and well-liked when it came out, but that was partly because the technology driving it was still pretty new, and the "wow" factor still played a major role. But even at the time, people were well aware of its glaring flaws, as reviews of the time point out. And as the games have aged and no longer have the gimmick of being "cutting edge," the flaws and bad decisions stand out much more clearly.

[|darc|]

Sonic games have always been that way, even in the 2D days.

Sorry to burst your nostalgia bubble, but it's true.

Growing up, I was always a Nintendo kid. The Dreamcast was the first piece of Sega hardware I owned, and I only knew two people who owned a Genesis: Jeeba and one of my other best friends. So my views are going to be biased, but hear me out.

What intrigued me about Sonic games, was, of course, the speed. Mario games didn't have much speed and it was really fucking cool to watch someone play Sonic. But most of the really thrilling speed sequences are "on rails" in that you pretty much get a guaranteed little portion to blaze through, collect guaranteed rings and knock out some guaranteed vulnerable enemies. But then that part stops and you return to standard platforming, which is at "normal speed" for platformers, and is subpar when compared to Mario. You have limited abilities/powerups compared to Mario. The level design can be more interesting/complex, but the game doesn't take advantage of it with puzzles involving items and blocks you can pick up, throw, etc. like with Mario titles. Not to mention Mario's tighter controls and mechanics (IMO).

So, while the 2D Sonic titles are certainly worth playing, they don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the platforming masterpieces that SMB3/SMW are. To compare Sonic 1/2/3 to SMW is just laughable. They aren't even in the same ballpark. And I still think the 8-bit SMB3 provides a tremendously more entertaining experience than the 16-bit Sonic 1/2/3 as well.

And to take it further, look at the Sonic Xtreme video. Sure, seems like an interesting concept. But even accounting for the fact that it is an outdated demo video, you can't tell me you'd rather play that crap than Mario 64, despite Mario 64's highly flawed control scheme.

Sonic Adventure did a decent job of making Sonic into a 3D platformer. The action stages were pretty much 3D versions of the 2D games. The game was stunningly beautiful compared to anything else released at the time, and I still think it's beautiful in VGA even today. But again, all the coolest-looking high-speed action parts are on-rails sequences where you just hold up on the joystick the entire time to keep running. Even when you factor in the parts that aren't "on rails," the camera is constantly pushing you to move in a certain direction and you pretty much only need to hold up, occasionally move left/right, and tap A to jump over or attack enemies. There's very little depth to the gameplay.

And while Mario is just self-admittedly a fun silly kids' game, as an adult I have no problem getting into silly kids' games, but Sonic has time and time again taken the route of trying to be "dark" or "extreme" whether it is with its style or, even worse, with its attempt at serious storylines. It reeks of early adolescent/teen cheese trying way too hard. They really should have kept him in a kids' game world. Sonic Adventure got by with me because it was cheesy in a campy way, he was in a human world but never really interacted with humans, etc. It was a lovable style of cheese in my opinion. But since then you have to look at how extremely fucking creepy Sonic has become, putting him in these anthropomorphic views with human characters, etc. it's downright weird.

Admittedly I have had very very little playtime with Sonic games since Sonic Adventure 1 and 2. But that's how I view the series. I don't hate it like I probably come off, but I certainly don't understand the people who act like this is some kind of first-rate franchise.

EDIT: I went back and watched those videos that cube_b3 linked to. I have to say that they are so ridiculous that they actually make me uncomfortable. Scenes of sexual tension between a realistically rendered beautiful human princess and a cartoon hedgehog with attitude? Really? I can't think of many more character interactions less genuine than that. And isn't Sonic supposed to be like 15 years old anyway? Anyone involved should be immediately fired and never work with any media ever again. It's actually kind of offensive to me and you're talking to a person who sat through the entirety of Scat Swapping School Swallow as a dare and didn't get offended. Why isn't he rescuing another goddamn cartoon hedgehog like Amy or something?

[cube_b3]

What intrigued me about Sonic games, was, of course, the speed. Mario games didn't have much speed and it was really fucking cool to watch someone play Sonic. But most of the really thrilling speed sequences are "on rails" in that you pretty much get a guaranteed little portion to blaze through, collect guaranteed rings and knock out some guaranteed vulnerable enemies. But then that part stops and you return to standard platforming, which is at "normal speed" for platformers, and is subpar when compared to Mario. You have limited abilities/powerups compared to Mario. The level design can be more interesting/complex, but the game doesn't take advantage of it with puzzles involving items and blocks you can pick up, throw, etc. like with Mario titles. Not to mention Mario's tighter controls and mechanics (IMO).

What rail segment? I recently beat the entire game and if you watch videos on YouTube it is astonishing how fast the hardcore people can go:

Even if I just go along with your statement that they slowed down, that statement can not apply to Sonic 2.
Sonic 2 really was much more faster because the developers and consumers wanted a faster experience.

Sonic Adventure did a decent job of making Sonic into a 3D platformer. The action stages were pretty much 3D versions of the 2D games.

Sonic Adventure 1 was a little too slow for my taste during those platforming sections. Sonic Adventure 2 addressed that.
Knuckles was there for 3D exploration and that wasn't fun. But the camera angles and bugs weren't the reason why it wasn't fun. It was auto generated puzzles rather than thought provoking intelligent and fun puzzles.

I really enjoyed the Tails/Robotnik stages as well. They were awesome.

Anyway I love your point that it was basically 3D version of the 2D games and I loved it. Specially Green Hill Zone remake.

I don't understand why Colors and the others don't have 3D platforming, why are all the complex things in 2D?

And while Mario is just self-admittedly a fun silly kids' game, as an adult I have no problem getting into silly kids' games, but Sonic has time and time again taken the route of trying to be "dark" or "extreme" whether it is with its style or, even worse, with its attempt at serious storylines. It reeks of early adolescent/teen cheese trying way too hard. They really should have kept him in a kids' game world. Sonic Adventure got by with me because it was cheesy in a campy way, he was in a human world but never really interacted with humans, etc. It was a lovable style of cheese in my opinion. But since then you have to look at how extremely fucking creepy Sonic has become, putting him in these anthropomorphic views with human characters, etc. it's downright weird.

Yup you are echoing what the main stream always says.
For some weird reason I don't mind it and I am not like this I am usually very very nitpicky but I have some weird appreciation for Sonic Team and I can look past the flaws and some how manage to concentrate on the positives.

EDIT: I went back and watched those videos that cube_b3 linked to. I have to say that they are so ridiculous that they actually make me uncomfortable. Scenes of sexual tension between a realistically rendered beautiful human princess and a cartoon hedgehog with attitude? Really? I can't think of many more character interactions less genuine than that. And isn't Sonic supposed to be like 15 years old anyway? Anyone involved should be immediately fired and never work with any media ever again. It's actually kind of offensive to me and you're talking to a person who sat through the entirety of Scat Swapping School Swallow as a dare and didn't get offended. Why isn't he rescuing another goddamn cartoon hedgehog like Amy or something?[/quote]

They were some uncomfortable moments even for me in Sonic 06. Somehow I just don't care... but I still managed to enjoy the overall relationship between Elise and Sonic it was exponentially more meaningful then whatever he has with Amy.

I know nobody wants to discuss this and let's not. But, like I said. I probably never really put stock in the art style and never considered Sonic an animal. He was anthropomorphic enough to just be human to me. Didn't something similar happen in Mass Effect (I haven't played the game). Didn't shepherd hook up with an Alien?

All I took away from the Sonic Story in 06 was that Sonic is a free bird and Elise isn't and through interaction with him, she can learn to live a little. What's the harm in that? Off course the whole creepy kiss towards the end of the game was something that would make even me cringe.

Honestly now that I am thinking, this arc reminds me of Yes, Man. Where Zooey Deschannel can be Sonic and Jim Carrey can be princess Elise. I know this is another critical and commercial dud but I enjoyed that movie.
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Lastly, the best arc in Sonic 06 was Shadow's. That arc doesn't have humans - though Shadow is the first Sonic character to have a relationship with a human, since no body complained about that, they went ahead and hooked sonic up with a human as well.

You know original Naoto Oshima designs had all 4 Chaotix, and Madonna (his human girl friend) together in the first game and Sega of America's Madeline Shouder stepped in and said "Yeah, this shit ain't working". She was the one who redesigned Sonic and put him on Mobious and gave the whole environmental friendly message.

Naoto Oshima managed to reintroduce those rejected characters in Knuckles Chaotix and domestically they always kept him in the human world. I am personally not a fan of the whole Mobius thing since I was never aware of the english/American story line.

We should do a pod cast?

[Specially Cork]

I just want you (Cork) to acknowledge a demographic that exists and is strong.

I don't care about demographics. I'm just judging individual games on whether I like them or not.

Sonic 06 is an absolutely wretched piece of shit and the general consensus on aggregate sites supports this. I'm not going to accept it's good just because some people happen to like it.

[Matisfaction]

You don't have to be old enough to remember 2D Sonic to know that 3D Sonic is crap...