DC VS PS2

[MetaFox]

Sony helped too. It was a combination of things.

The Dreamcast was discontinued due to piracy, plain and simple.

However, other factors contributed to it's lack of commercial success:

1) Sega, for creating the Mil-CD format
2) Utopia, Echelon, and Kallisto for warezing the crap out of the games and releasing releases in Mil-CD format, eliminating the need for a modchip
3) Sony for lying about the specs of the PS2, bribing and/or threatening game stores to push the Sony products to the front, and paying off publishers to develop for PS2 rather than Xbox/DC
4) Sega again, for poor marketing

But, yeah - thw topic of "what killed the Dreamcast" has been done to death.

[az_bont]

Piracy was far more prevalent on the original Playstation, and Sony managed to shift over 100 million units.

[MetaFox]

Piracy was far more prevalent on the original Playstation, and Sony managed to shift over 100 million units.

It also requires a modchip or a swapdisk. Dreamcast is a burn-and-play system. In terms of units to pirates, piracy was (and is) far more prevalent on the Dreamcast than the PSOne (or any system yet released for that matter).

Almost every developer and publisher left the system after the Mil-CD format was exploited. No one wants to spend their money on a system with no security what-so-ever. Once the third party developers were gone, the system was doomed.

Because of that, the PSX piracy excuse doesn't work. Developers continued to develop for the PSX after it was cracked because there was still security in place. In order to pirate PSX discs, you needed a modchip or a swaptrick. It was still in the company's best interests to develop for the PSX, as they only had to worry about 10-15% of the PSX hardware owning public pirating the PSX.

The Dreamcast had a 100% availability for piracy (which was more around 75% when you count in those who have access to CD burners, or who would buy pirate CDs on ebay or the black market). That's definately not a pleasant statistic to deal with when you're a large company with stockholders to satisfy.

Dreamcast hardware sales rose sharply when the system was pirated, but the software sales had equally as big of a decline. As I said before, it's no coincidence that Sega discontinued the Dreamcast a mere 6 months after Utopia released their first warez game.

You have to remember that the Dreamcast's major selling point to developers and publishers was that it had an "uncrackable" security system in place. Once that security system was exploited, all hell broke loose.

[az_bont]

How many people had a fast enough broadband connection and a CD-writer in 1999/2000? I'd be willing to bet that there weren't many.

I knew plenty of people who would either chip your Playstation or sell you a Game Enhancer, and there were plenty more selling pirated games. I have never known anyone selling pirated Dreamcast games, however. Similarly, of all the people I knew with a Dreamcast, not one of them had any pirated games. With my Playstation-owning friends, however, it was very different.

The reason developers didn't jump ship with the Playstation is that it was already doing very well when piracy became possible. The same cannot be said about the Dreamcast.

If the Dreamcast really was that desirable to pirates, then surely there wouldn't have been so many new consoles sitting un-bought on shop shelves years after Sega ceased production.

Sega tried really hard with the Dreamcast, but public trust of Sega was very lacking after some of their previous failures - particulary the Saturn and 32X. Coupled with Sony's propeganda campaigns, their hopes of commercial success were not the most realistic. If piracy was in any way responsible for the death of the system, then it was only as straw that broke the camel's back.

[MetaFox]

How many people had a fast enough broadband connection and a CD-writer in 1999/2000? I'd be willing to bet that there weren't many.

The Dreamcast wasn't cracked until 2000. There's also the matter of eBay piracy - hundreds of auctions of pirated games sell on eBay every year - and even more so on yahoo auctions, as it's less policed.

Dreamcast piracy is more widespread than the typical PC owner with a burner piracy that happens on other consoles, for the simple fact that the pirate games on the Dreamcast are selfbooting. Heck, most of the people that buy pirate games aren't even aware that they are buying pirate games.

If the Dreamcast really was that desirable to pirates, then surely there wouldn't have been so many new consoles sitting un-bought on shop shelves years after Sega ceased production.

That's irrelevant - people don't buy dead consoles in droves. When the Dreamcast was still alive and the system was cracked, hardware was flying off the shelves faster than Sega could keep up with demand (enough to force Sega to make one last run of consoles in late 2000, even though they knew it was going to be discontinued 2 months later). As soon as Sega announced that the Dreamcast was discontinued (a mere 6 months after piracy began), that buying trend cooled down considerably.

If Sega had kept the Dreamcast in production longer, it's obvious from the buying trend that more people would have bought the system to use for piracy. Console manufacturers (other than Nintendo) don't make money on hardware, they make it on software. And with hardware selling four times as much as the software, it's obvious what the majority of those users were buying the consoles for. It would have been suicide for Sega to keep the Dreamcast going when the majority of the users were just buying hardware for piracy.

The reason developers didn't jump ship with the Playstation is that it was already doing very well when piracy became possible. The same cannot be said about the Dreamcast.

If you look at the game charts in 2001, there were quite a few Dreamcast games in the top 10. It wasn't the commercial failure that people make it out to be. It could have easily weathered longer had the system not been cracked. The developers and publishers jumped ship right after the piracy began. You can't have a system without third party developers.

If you think that the fact that the developers and publishers began withdrawing their support for the dreamcast the same month that the Dreamcast was cracked is only a coincidence, you're only kidding yourself.

[Cid Highwind]

Dreamcast piracy is more widespread than the typical PC owner with a burner piracy that happens on other consoles, for the simple fact that the pirate games on the Dreamcast are selfbooting. Heck, most of the people that buy pirate games aren't even aware that they are buying pirate games.

I'm not going to argue about this, but saying that people didn't even know they were buying pirated games sounds a little exaggerated to me. It's easy to spot the difference between original copies and pirated games, even on auction sites like ebay, even today when prices of fakes and real ones are about the same...

[MetaFox]

I'm not going to argue about this, but saying that people didn't even know they were buying pirated games sounds a little exaggerated to me. It's easy to spot the difference between original copies and pirated games, even on auction sites like ebay, even today when prices of fakes and real ones are about the same...

I've seen it tons of times (on this message board and others). People think that they bought a legitimate Propeller Arena or Half Life on eBay, and then ask why it's not on any release lists.

There are a lot of people that are completely fooled by sleazy eBay sellers.

[Cid Highwind]

If the buyer would care about what they are buying they would've known it. When you see a game on ebay which has been released a month ago, for only 5 bucks, you know there is something wrong. Even a second handed game in good shape will be sold for more.
(I will leave the discussion by this as it is off topic as well, however, these are topics I always find interesting to read about )

[MetaFox]

If the buyer would care about what they are buying they would've known it. When you see a game on ebay which has been released a month ago, for only 5 bucks, you know there is something wrong. Even a second handed game in good shape will be sold for more.

This is true, and I agree with you. But the fact is, many buyers are too trusting, and people do in fact buy warezed games without ever knowing it, despite how phony the games appear to you or me.

[az_bont]

How many people had a fast enough broadband connection and a CD-writer in 1999/2000? I'd be willing to bet that there weren't many.

The Dreamcast wasn't cracked until 2001.

Sega announced that the Dreamcast was being discontinued in January 2001. How could piracy have had a serious effect if the console was dead before it even started?

There's also the matter of eBay piracy - hundreds of auctions of pirated games sell on eBay every year - and even more so on yahoo auctions, as it's less policed.

Most of the more popular Dreamcast games managed close to a million units or more. A few hundred eBay auctions are hardly likely to upset Sega's wallet too much, especially as most of the games wouldn't have been bought at full price anyway.

Dreamcast piracy is more widespread than the typical PC owner with a burner piracy that happens on other consoles, for the simple fact that the pirate games on the Dreamcast are selfbooting. Heck, most of the people that buy pirate games aren't even aware that they are buying pirate games..

With your typical "PC owned with a burner" he can copy Playstation games from friends or stores, which just isn't possible with the Dreamcast.

Games could be downloaded, but this was during a time when BitTorrent was not available and the eDonkey network was in its infancy. The only real way to get the games would be via newsgroups, and few people have the means or the skills to get files off of there. Especially at a time when most Dreamcast owners would be sing dial-up for their internet connection.

The Dreamcast had plenty of time to turn a decent profit, but it just never sold enough games. There were more than 250 games released in America alone before piracy on the Dreamcast even existed, and only three of them sold more than one million copies, and then only just. By comparison, the N64 had 7 time as many games that sold more than one million copies, with the Playstation managing more than 17 times as many as the Dreamcast.

I am prepared to accept that piracy was a contributing factor, but there were much more significant reasons for its eventual failure, most of them the fault of Sega.

[MetaFox]

Sega announced that the Dreamcast was being discontinued in January 2001. How could piracy have had a serious effect if the console was dead before it even started?

I screwed up on the date. I edited my post before you even made your reply.

I am prepared to accept that piracy was a contributing factor, but there were much more significant reasons for its eventual failure, most of them the fault of Sega.

How do you explain the fact that developers and publishers started dropping like flies in 2000? By 2001, the only major developers the Dreamcast had left (outside of the games that were already scheduled to be released) were Sega themselves, and Capcom. Like I said above (after I edited my post, and you probably missed it): If you think that the fact that the developers and publishers began withdrawing their support for the dreamcast the same month that the Dreamcast was cracked is only a coincidence, you're only kidding yourself.

[az_bont]

Sega announced that the Dreamcast was being discontinued in January 2001. How could piracy have had a serious effect if the console was dead before it even started?

I screwed up on the date. I edited my post before you even made your reply.

Sorry about that. I noticed it later on in the post, but I ate a pizza and watched an entire film in between writing the two halves .

I am prepared to accept that piracy was a contributing factor, but there were much more significant reasons for its eventual failure, most of them the fault of Sega.

How do you explain the fact that developers and publishers started dropping like flies in 2000?

By 2001, the only major developers the Dreamcast had left (outside of the games that were already scheduled to be released) were Sega themselves, and Capcom. Like I said above (after I edited my post, and you probably missed it): If you think that the fact that the developers and publishers began withdrawing their support for the dreamcast the same month that the Dreamcast was cracked is only a coincidence, you're only kidding yourself.

It was at that point they realised that the Dreamcast wasn't earning them enough money so they switched their attention to other consoles? Remember, this was also smack in between the Japanese and American/European release of the Playstation 2, which just about every gaming magazine was claiming would blow all the competition out of the water. How many people do you know that didn't buy a Dreamcast because they'd been told the PS2 would be worth waiting for?

[Caboose]

I just want to point out that many people didn't want to buy a Dreamcast because of what ahppened with the Saturn. Many gamers felt betrayed, and didn't want to get screwed over again.

[Juan]

And f355 is blown away by GT3 graphics-wise. The car models are better, the textures are better, the environments are better, and the lighting effects are better in GT3.

And F355 has an extra outside camera on PS2.

[GyroVorbis]

And f355 is blown away by GT3 graphics-wise. The car models are better, the textures are better, the environments are better, and the lighting effects are better in GT3.

And F355 has an extra outside camera on PS2.

And Resident Evil Code Veronica looks blurry/faded, has additional load screens, and assy vibration support compared to DC.

[Skynet]

How many people do you know that didn't buy a Dreamcast because they'd been told the PS2 would be worth waiting for?

Ha! I remember back in the day I was like "omg the dc is crap! Ps2 is best" I got my DC 4 years ago and the only reason I have a PS2 is coz my gf bought a slim ps2 about a month ago. If it weren't for that, I still wouldn't own one.

[GyroVorbis]

I own a PS2, because my parents bought it for me on Christmas. I play my DC more than any other console I own, and the only games I do play on PS2 are games like Sonic Mega Collection and MegaMan Anniversary Collection that're just ports/collections of other games for other consoles...

[Quzar]

Piracy couldn't possibly kill it alone, because with piracy increased, in theory hardware sales would increase greatly because of the one-time investment aspect. Think about it: would you be more willing to pay 100$ for a machine with hundreds of games availible for free or a 50$ machine where every game costs over 20$?

Yea, they make more from software sales as a general priciple, but it's not a complete standstill situation.

[Skynet]

Bit offtopic, but how much did piracy affect the C64? Hell, I remember owning heaps of tapes with warezed games on them. And to me it seemed like a lot less people cared about piracy back then, what with cracking groups giving names and addresses in their intros and what not.

[Caboose]

Piracy couldn't possibly kill it alone, because with piracy increased, in theory hardware sales would increase greatly because of the one-time investment aspect. Think about it: would you be more willing to pay 100$ for a machine with hundreds of games availible for free or a 50$ machine where every game costs over 20$?

Yea, they make more from software sales as a general priciple, but it's not a complete standstill situation.

I think they lose money for every console made (or at least, I'm pretty sure that's the case with Microsoft and the Xbox).