N.J. Eatery Writes 'Jew Couple' on Check

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Post by Sicario »

That's irrelevant. The Jews were the ones discriminated against, herded together, and destroyed. The reason was simply because of ignorant hatred.

The Russians were shot because they were the enemy.

I'm not saying the Nazis loved Russians at any rate, but it was certainly the Jews that their actions were geared against. It's highly unlikely that a Neonazi would go after Russians, but highly likely that they would go after a Jew. A Jew would be the one to be afraid.
The Jews were herded up and killed because they were foriegners in an ultranationalist nation of people who had been economically wrecked by the first World War, also they were killed as the communist party was first initiated by Jews and most of the abortive communist insurrections s in Germany were caused by Jews. Because of this many German poor and conservatives grew to hate Jews. And like Jews have in any country they live in- wealth mostly, with an emphasis on education and elevation in society. The Germans decided it was unfair as they were not true Germans, this was reflected in the political climate which was increasinly volatile towards Jews for years before they started killing them, you think they would have gotten the fukk out. But they had carved out a living in Germany and many didn't want to leave their businesses and money behind to try to start over elsewhere, also many places because had economic, xenophobic and outright antijew policies and would not allow them to enter their countries. Honestly, the government took an openly antijewish stance in 1935, I don't see why they didn't leave, why live in a coutnry as second class citizens?

Honestly tho, Jews were both scapegoated in Nazi Germany and taken down as a struggle between the proletariat and the wealthy. However, to my knowledge, German wealthy were not persecuted by the Nazi regime were they? I think they allowed the poor to channel their aggression against the wealthy on the Jewish population, it was a clever tactic I suppose.
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Post by mikozero »

Sicario wrote:the government took an openly antijewish stance in 1935, I don't see why they didn't leave, why live in a coutnry as second class citizens?
germany tried initally to get rid of them via forced immigration but a great many countrys wouldn't take them in. there was nowhere for them to go.

forced immigration was the nazis main policy until it became clear it would not work, 'Kristallnacht' (November 9, 1938) is widely considered the turning point at which they gave up on this idea and started to consider other 'options'.
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Post by Gav-X »

Sicario: thanks for starting to make better-natured posts. I'd like to ask you to use "jewish people" or some variation of that instead of "jews", I really do find it to be an offensive word. I apologize for the inconvenience.
Sicario wrote: The Jews were herded up and killed because they were foriegners in an ultranationalist nation of people who had been economically wrecked by the first World War...
Maybe you're right there, but this was not the only reason. You say it yourself later, scapegoats were needed as part of hitler's war propaganda. He needed to have his citizens riled up, and there are almost no better ways to do that than appeal to an age-old humanity defect: hatred of differences.
Sicario wrote:...also they were killed as the communist party was first initiated by Jews and most of the abortive communist insurrections s in Germany were caused by Jews. Because of this many German poor and conservatives grew to hate Jews. ...
Can you back that up with some info? I never heard about it.

Sicario wrote:...And like Jews have in any country they live in- wealth mostly, with an emphasis on education and elevation in society...
That's completely wrong and is based on a stereotype that dates back to the middle ages when the first banks ever were created by jewish people. I am not rich at all, and most of the jewish acquaintances I have belong at most in the middle-high class purchasing power.
Sicario wrote:...The Germans decided it was unfair as they were not true Germans, this was reflected in the political climate which was increasinly volatile towards Jews for years before they started killing them, you think they would have gotten the fukk out. But they had carved out a living in Germany and many didn't want to leave their businesses and money behind to try to start over elsewhere, also many places because had economic, xenophobic and outright antijew policies and would not allow them to enter their countries. Honestly, the government took an openly antijewish stance in 1935, I don't see why they didn't leave, why live in a coutnry as second class citizens?...
Things are never that easy. I don't know for sure if mikozero's statement is correct, but if it is, it's a good reason. Besides, would you leave family, friends, jobs and everything you know behind just because of an (at first) slightlyhostile environment? No one could have predicted it would escalate into what it did. Besides, once the war began, pretty much all of Europe was unsafe.
Sicario wrote:...Honestly tho, Jews were both scapegoated in Nazi Germany and taken down as a struggle between the proletariat and the wealthy. However, to my knowledge, German wealthy were not persecuted by the Nazi regime were they? I think they allowed the poor to channel their aggression against the wealthy on the Jewish population, it was a clever tactic I suppose.
The assumption that all jewish people were rich is wrong, but then again, Hitler used that stereotype (among many others) in order to keep his war machine going. In any case, this part of your post is what I referred to in my first reply and makes a very good point. Broadening this bias against rich germans would indeed have probably been an error since I'm sure some of them had friends among the middle-class germans.
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Post by greay »

Gav-X wrote:Sicario: thanks for starting to make better-natured posts. I'd like to ask you to use "jewish people" or some variation of that instead of "jews", I really do find it to be an offensive word. I apologize for the inconvenience.
This is the first I've ever heard of the noun "Jew" being considered offensive. None of my Jewish friends & family have ever taken issue w/the word; all, as far as I can remember, use the word.

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Post by Wagh »

Godfearing greay wrote:
Gav-X wrote:Sicario: thanks for starting to make better-natured posts. I'd like to ask you to use "jewish people" or some variation of that instead of "jews", I really do find it to be an offensive word. I apologize for the inconvenience.
This is the first I've ever heard of the noun "Jew" being considered offensive. None of my Jewish friends & family have ever taken issue w/the word; all, as far as I can remember, use the word.

...
That's exactly what I said.
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Post by FETUS »

Stormwatch wrote:Could be. Then again, not all jews actually care about kosher.
If your name is stein and your dating another person who's obviously jewish then it's pretty safe to assume, like a mexican with an accent it's pretty safe to assume he speaks spanish.
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Post by greay »

Wagh wrote:
Godfearing greay wrote:
Gav-X wrote:Sicario: thanks for starting to make better-natured posts. I'd like to ask you to use "jewish people" or some variation of that instead of "jews", I really do find it to be an offensive word. I apologize for the inconvenience.
This is the first I've ever heard of the noun "Jew" being considered offensive. None of my Jewish friends & family have ever taken issue w/the word; all, as far as I can remember, use the word.

...
That's exactly what I said.
Yeah.

I'd imagine there's a large number of Jewish people out there who would be very upset to find out that the only noun they have is considered a slur.
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Post by Orange_Ribbon »

I live in NJ, what place was this anyhow?
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Post by Gav-X »

Wagh wrote:
Godfearing greay wrote:
Gav-X wrote:Sicario: thanks for starting to make better-natured posts. I'd like to ask you to use "jewish people" or some variation of that instead of "jews", I really do find it to be an offensive word. I apologize for the inconvenience.
This is the first I've ever heard of the noun "Jew" being considered offensive. None of my Jewish friends & family have ever taken issue w/the word; all, as far as I can remember, use the word.

...
That's exactly what I said.
I know, you did, and I answered accordingly. Some people (like me) can be offended by that word, it just depends on who is saying it and in what context.
FETUS wrote:
Stormwatch wrote:Could be. Then again, not all jews actually care about kosher.
If your name is stein and your dating another person who's obviously jewish then it's pretty safe to assume, like a mexican with an accent it's pretty safe to assume he speaks spanish.
You're completely wrong. I know tons of jewish people (including myself) that don't care at all about kosher. Not all jewish people are hardcore devouts.
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Post by ace »

Erm, why are you offended by it?
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Post by Roofus »

ace wrote:Erm, why are you offended by it?
All language is offensive unless it has more than eight syllables and contains at least one hyphen.
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Post by ace »

:lol:
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Post by Wagh »

Gav-X wrote:
Wagh wrote:
Godfearing greay wrote:
Gav-X wrote:Sicario: thanks for starting to make better-natured posts. I'd like to ask you to use "jewish people" or some variation of that instead of "jews", I really do find it to be an offensive word. I apologize for the inconvenience.
This is the first I've ever heard of the noun "Jew" being considered offensive. None of my Jewish friends & family have ever taken issue w/the word; all, as far as I can remember, use the word.

...
That's exactly what I said.
I know, you did, and I answered accordingly. Some people (like me) can be offended by that word, it just depends on who is saying it and in what context.
I wasn't talking to you there.
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Post by greay »

Gav-X wrote:
Wagh wrote:
Godfearing greay wrote:
Gav-X wrote:Sicario: thanks for starting to make better-natured posts. I'd like to ask you to use "jewish people" or some variation of that instead of "jews", I really do find it to be an offensive word. I apologize for the inconvenience.
This is the first I've ever heard of the noun "Jew" being considered offensive. None of my Jewish friends & family have ever taken issue w/the word; all, as far as I can remember, use the word.

...
That's exactly what I said.
I know, you did, and I answered accordingly. Some people (like me) can be offended by that word, it just depends on who is saying it and in what context.
The context was WWII, so I know that wasn't what's offensive. Were you offended just because it was Sicario saying it?
Gav-X wrote:
FETUS wrote:
Stormwatch wrote:Could be. Then again, not all jews actually care about kosher.
If your name is stein and your dating another person who's obviously jewish then it's pretty safe to assume, like a mexican with an accent it's pretty safe to assume he speaks spanish.
You're completely wrong. I know tons of jewish people (including myself) that don't care at all about kosher. Not all jewish people are hardcore devouts.
No, you're wrong. You're right that not all Jews are hardcore devotees, but it's still a safe assumption that someone who is "obviously" Jewish (wearing a yarmulke?) is going to be concerned about keeping kosher. A safe assumption doesn't mean you're going to be right 100% of the time. All it means is you're probably not going to get in trouble if you're wrong.
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Post by -Azathoth- »

Gav-X wrote:
Wagh wrote:
Godfearing greay wrote:
Gav-X wrote:Sicario: thanks for starting to make better-natured posts. I'd like to ask you to use "jewish people" or some variation of that instead of "jews", I really do find it to be an offensive word. I apologize for the inconvenience.
This is the first I've ever heard of the noun "Jew" being considered offensive. None of my Jewish friends & family have ever taken issue w/the word; all, as far as I can remember, use the word.

...
That's exactly what I said.
I know, you did, and I answered accordingly. Some people (like me) can be offended by that word, it just depends on who is saying it and in what context.
FETUS wrote:
Stormwatch wrote:Could be. Then again, not all jews actually care about kosher.
If your name is stein and your dating another person who's obviously jewish then it's pretty safe to assume, like a mexican with an accent it's pretty safe to assume he speaks spanish.
You're completely wrong. I know tons of jewish people (including myself) that don't care at all about kosher. Not all jewish people are hardcore devouts.
You're COMPLETELY overanalyzing this entire situation. That's exactly what caused the diner incident to become more severe than it had to be. You may not be a devout jew, but your take on this such as "it just depends on who is saying it and in what context." leads me to believe you are just as uncomfortable with what happened at that diner as the couple who complained. Why does the word bother you? What evidence is there that the word was used as anything more than a description of a pair of people ordering food? Does making a scene and seeing someone lose their job satisfy you? Are you now a "nazi" (figuratively speaking) in the sense that you were pleased at the misfortune of another over a misunderstanding on what would/could have been your fault, had you been in the couples place?

(prepare for a long winded and equally overly analytical response)
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Post by SuperMegatron »

It depends on the context as to its offensiveness.Kinda like black you can call a person black and its ok but if your tone is negative then the word takes on a different meaning.
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Post by Gav-X »

ace wrote:Erm, why are you offended by it?
I heard people use it against me in clearly insulting manners one too many times. Like SuperMegatron says, it depends on the context.

Godfearing greay wrote:The context was WWII, so I know that wasn't what's offensive. Were you offended just because it was Sicario saying it?
Sicario's first two posts on the subject were very offensive ones. In light of that, I concluded he didn't use that word as a noun but rather as a derogatory adjective.

Godfearing greay wrote:No, you're wrong. You're right that not all Jews are hardcore devotees, but it's still a safe assumption that someone who is "obviously" Jewish (wearing a yarmulke?) is going to be concerned about keeping kosher. A safe assumption doesn't mean you're going to be right 100% of the time. All it means is you're probably not going to get in trouble if you're wrong.
FETUS was alluding to a generic scenario and didn't mention a yarmulke. As for your own argument, I disagree with you. First of all, if someone is really concerned about getting kosher food they won't go into a run-of-the-mill diner. Second, there are virtually endless ways to approach a religion and therefore an endless amount of reasons one would wear a yarmulke. Besides, I am not trying to correct people's thoughts here, one should be free to think whatever they want. Expressing it, however, is another issue and requires some ground rules (respect, common sense, logical political correctness) because expression means interaction which can result in offensive situations.

-Azathoth- wrote:You're COMPLETELY overanalyzing this entire situation. That's exactly what caused the diner incident to become more severe than it had to be. You may not be a devout jew, but your take on this such as "it just depends on who is saying it and in what context." leads me to believe you are just as uncomfortable with what happened at that diner as the couple who complained. Why does the word bother you? What evidence is there that the word was used as anything more than a description of a pair of people ordering food? Does making a scene and seeing someone lose their job satisfy you? Are you now a "nazi" (figuratively speaking) in the sense that you were pleased at the misfortune of another over a misunderstanding on what would/could have been your fault, had you been in the couples place?

(prepare for a long winded and equally overly analytical response)
Wow, that was a kickass way of twisting my words and trying to use them against me. Like I already said before, I heard people use that word against me as a derogatory adjective way too many times. I would never create a scene, but I certainly would complain to the waitress and if she didn't apologize I'd talk to the manager. And I also wouldn't have had her fired. If you even bothered to read the thread, you would have seen that in the 8th post of the first page (in an answer to you, no less) I said that firing her was an overreaction and that some kind of sensitivity class would have sufficed.
I also have no idea as to what was the intention of using that word, but I don't need to. Again, like I said before in here, it doesn't matter what intentions were behind that poor choice of word. It just matters if the alluded person feels offended or not, and if he/she does, then is entitled to an apology after explaining why he's offended.

One more thing: I don't appreciate you trying to downplay my feelings by anticipating the quality of my reply as "long winded and overly analytical". It was condescending and insulting, not to mention your completely uncalled for usage of the word "nazi" in order to antagonize me and emphasize your last statement. That was a really stupid, immature thing to do. And where did I analize (let alone overanalize) things? I only made a statement, then proceeded to answer your replies. I never went on a "what if..." rampage or anything.

SuperMegatron wrote:It depends on the context as to its offensiveness.Kinda like black you can call a person black and its ok but if your tone is negative then the word takes on a different meaning.
My point exactly.
Last edited by Gav-X on Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by bizzle »

LOL.
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Post by mikozero »

Gav-X wrote:one should be free to think whatever they want. Expressing it, however, is another issue and requires some ground rules (respect, common sense, logical political correctness) because expression means interaction which can result in offensive situations.
long rant,
just one little thing, don't espouse 'political correctness' as a limit on freedom of speech.
if i wish to offend (and face the consequences) i shall.
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Post by Wagh »

mikozero wrote:
Gav-X wrote:one should be free to think whatever they want. Expressing it, however, is another issue and requires some ground rules (respect, common sense, logical political correctness) because expression means interaction which can result in offensive situations.
long rant,
just one little thing, don't espouse 'political correctness' as a limit on freedom of speech.
if i wish to offend (and face the consequences) i shall.
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