Doom / Quake for release?

Post by **Quzar** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:24 pm

speud wrote:personnally i would really feel cheated if someone made any benefict of my work without being polite enough to ask before. this kind of attitude would even make me want to break the GPL and not release the source code. theres no need, but it would be much better.
anyway, if i understood correctly dan is willing to get porters' blessing first.

you need to understand that is part of what you enter into when you work with GPLd code. You can do what you want with it for free, but then so can others.

speud · Post by **speud** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:28 pm

im not talking about legality here quzar. seriously this would be the sort of decision that would make lot of people think twice before releasing anything on dc for free anymore.

goatdan · Post by **goatdan** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:31 pm

Um, for those who missed it:

Me wrote:3) See if the people who ported the games would allow me to publish it on a disk with Id's blessing. If allowed = yes, goto 4. Else quit.

I know it would be legal to do without people's permission, but I'm not about to start burning those bridges.

And *if* the project gets off the ground, the people that would get paid would be Id, the developers of the engine and the developers of the secondary levelsets. I can't offer much until I see what Id wants (or if they are even open to the idea) and even then, it probably won't be much of anything... It isn't like publishing these games is making me rich or anything.

speud · Post by **speud** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:36 pm

yes i know that, i appreciate the way you decided to make it. also i know it's not to become rich, and the people you might want to contact would probably not ask for becoming rich with this release neither.

Nyarlathotep · Post by **Nyarlathotep** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:40 pm

I don't think you should be arguing over hypothetials before you have even contacted ID yet; given how hard they jumped on consolevision over a misunderstanding regarding Wolfenstein 3D, I suspect they are probably not going to accept your offer - although I'm certainly not going to suggest you don't even give it a go anyway

Phantom wrote: Do you think linux companies like Redhat contact all the authors of all the software they use in their distro's?

True, most people forget that.

Phantom · Post by **Phantom** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:52 pm

goatdan wrote:I know it would be legal to do without people's permission, but I'm not about to start burning those bridges.

Actually, the permission is granted by the GPL license. Without permission it would not be legal. But I understand what you mean.

There's nothing wrong with distributing free software for a fee. In fact, that's something that's generally encouraged. Ofcourse, if large profits were to be made from free software and nothing would be donated back to the free software community at all, that would be frowned upon.

bizzle · Post by **bizzle** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:58 pm

MetaFox wrote:
Xylene wrote:Doom, Quake 1 and Quake 2 have already been ported to Dreamcast. Would be kind of stupid to release it commercially becuase you can already get it for free. Not really worth paying anything for some new maps. This is just my opinion though.
The engines have been ported, but the game data still needs to be purchased. If The GOAT Store can license the game data for the games, and use previously-existing ports of the game engine to play that data, all on a handy pressed CD that can be played legally on the Dreamcast, including custom game data using the engine for new games, and even Dreamcast exclusive games, then surely there's nothing wrong with that.

I know, I was sort of getting at that. If you're going to use the free ports of the engines you most likely already own the game data, legally or not, but thats not our business. Why would you pay for it again then for Dreamcast? You're pretty much just paying for some new maps then. I am trying not to sound like an ass or anything, I just don't like the idea. Everything in the scene is getting so commercial.. it makes me sick. Again, I am not trying to be an ass or anything, but wasn't the scene started for FUN and FREE homebrew software for the Dreamcast not for profit. I know some agree with me on this subject, but I know others feel differently.

emptythought · Post by **emptythought** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:13 pm

Xylene wrote:
MetaFox wrote:
Xylene wrote:Doom, Quake 1 and Quake 2 have already been ported to Dreamcast. Would be kind of stupid to release it commercially becuase you can already get it for free. Not really worth paying anything for some new maps. This is just my opinion though.
The engines have been ported, but the game data still needs to be purchased. If The GOAT Store can license the game data for the games, and use previously-existing ports of the game engine to play that data, all on a handy pressed CD that can be played legally on the Dreamcast, including custom game data using the engine for new games, and even Dreamcast exclusive games, then surely there's nothing wrong with that.
I know, I was sort of getting at that. If you're going to use the free ports of the engines you most likely already own the game data, legally or not, but thats not our business. Why would you pay for it again then for Dreamcast? You're pretty much just paying for some new maps then. I am trying not to sound like an ass or anything, I just don't like the idea. Everything in the scene is getting so commercial.. it makes me sick. Again, I am not trying to be an ass or anything, but wasn't the scene started for FUN and FREE homebrew software for the Dreamcast not for profit. I know some agree with me on this subject, but I know others feel differently.

I see where you're getting at. But the complete fact of having it look professional is the reason why I would buy it. A complete brand new disc with completely original games.

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:29 pm

Xylene wrote:Everything in the scene is getting so commercial.. it makes me sick. Again, I am not trying to be an ass or anything, but wasn't the scene started for FUN and FREE homebrew software for the Dreamcast not for profit.

Technically, KOS was developed with intentions of releasing commercial games for the Dreamcast from the start.

I do agree though that the "homebrew scene" and the independant dreamcast commercial releases are two different beasts. Like Dan Potter said (not verbatim), once you go into the realm of commercial releases, you're taking your work onto a higher level then the free software. Commercial releases should be polished and refined, but the same shouldn't be expected for the developers who release games for free.

That being said, all games released as commercial software thus far are of that quality (Feet of Fury, Inhabitants and Maqiupai). This was one of my main reasons for the delays of my own projects. If my software doesn't live up to the expectations put up by my predecessors, then it shouldn't be released as a commercial product.

curt_grymala · Post by **curt_grymala** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:45 pm

I think it sounds like a cool idea. If you can get permission from Id, I say go for it. I would be interested.

bizzle · Post by **bizzle** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:46 pm

MetaFox wrote:
Xylene wrote:Everything in the scene is getting so commercial.. it makes me sick. Again, I am not trying to be an ass or anything, but wasn't the scene started for FUN and FREE homebrew software for the Dreamcast not for profit.
Technically, KOS was developed with intentions of releasing commercial games for the Dreamcast from the start.

Since when is KOS "the scene"? It's part of the scene but not the scene itself. There were things people were messing with before KOS.

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:53 pm

Xylene wrote:
MetaFox wrote:
Xylene wrote:Everything in the scene is getting so commercial.. it makes me sick. Again, I am not trying to be an ass or anything, but wasn't the scene started for FUN and FREE homebrew software for the Dreamcast not for profit.
Technically, KOS was developed with intentions of releasing commercial games for the Dreamcast from the start.
Since when is KOS "the scene"? It's part of the scene but not the scene itself. There were things people were messing with before KOS.

I was just pulling your leg, regurgitating a comment from Dan Potter in a previous post like this you made at the Consolevision forums - hence the

goatdan · Post by **goatdan** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:39 pm

Xylene wrote:I am trying not to sound like an ass or anything, I just don't like the idea. Everything in the scene is getting so commercial.. it makes me sick. Again, I am not trying to be an ass or anything, but wasn't the scene started for FUN and FREE homebrew software for the Dreamcast not for profit. I know some agree with me on this subject, but I know others feel differently.

Okay, let me give my two cents on this...

As you and others may or may not know, I got into this whole thing because I wanted to develop games for a console. In a nutshell, we ended up picking the Atari Lynx, and a developer signed us on and we started to work on a new game for them. In the end, we were screwed holding a loss of over $1000.00 and a publisher that refused to support us.

The reason I stepped into the Dreamcast publishing scene is twofold -- first of all, I love the Dreamcast more than probably any other system ever. I have been amazed by a lot of things about the system from software to accessories. And the community is the best, most together and level-headed community in all of console gaming. That's a fact.

The other reason is because I know that I wanted to develop a Lynx game to release it and get recognition and the possibility of bigger notice so I could perhaps roll into Game Boy Color or Neo Geo Pocket development. Unfortunately, when we got screwed, I ended up with no ability to produce or distribute my game myself. The GOAT Store was started to make back some of the money we had lost.

Suddenly, I realized *I* have a distribution channel to help people that want to publish games. And since I have had negative experience with this in the past, I hope to make it a better experience for those I work with.

That's the goal. I'm not trying to take away "FUN" or "FREE" things, but add to what already exists. As of this moment, there is no legal way to release Wolfenstein, Doom or Quake on the Cast. I'm trying to see if I can change that. I would like to see it, and it would open the door to other high-quality mods being released from developers.

I'm not condemning free stuff in any way. I happily made a lot of stuff that, had the Internet been accessable when I was making it would have been freeware. I believe in the method. But I also know that there is a special feeling that you can get from having something published. And I'm here to offer that to people that are interested.

Again, this is something that without being paid for wouldn't be possible. It might still not be possible -- but we can try. In my opinion, the act of publishing can only gain more FUN stuff for the community, stuff that couldn't be done for FREE.

And as stated, I'm not getting rich off of this. In fact, to date we have lost money trying to publish stuff - but I do it because I believe in the community and hope that we can keep it going for a long, long time.

jessman · Post by **jessman** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:52 pm

I actually kinda like this idea. I prolly wouldn't buy it because I already have the full doom on my dreamcast, but if it had any extra stuff, and an authentic cover and case for under $20 I prolly would.

WRAGGSTER · Post by **WRAGGSTER** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:10 pm

If i remember correctly, (troll should remember more than me), ID were quite happy when we put the shareware version up with a link back to IDs site.

Im sure ID Software will be very reasonable, they were over the QuakeDC release and you never know for a major publicity stunt actually give permission to the Goat store under certain conditions.

As for doom/quake coming to Dreamcast this way, i think its a ruddy great idea, you could have cds full of all the mods that work

I do have an idea though, instead of paying those that ported quake/doom etc getting cash, hows about any cash earnt after expenses etc etc being put back into the scene for a coding comp

in any case, nice idea Dan

goatdan · Post by **goatdan** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:17 pm

WRAGGSTER wrote:I do have an idea though, instead of paying those that ported quake/doom etc getting cash, hows about any cash earnt after expenses etc etc being put back into the scene for a coding comp

If we make any money, the plan would be to do with it what we plan on doing with any sort of profits we make -- put it away to help produce future games, whether as prizes for winning competitions, production costs or promotional costs.

WRAGGSTER · Post by **WRAGGSTER** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:33 pm

sounds good to me, keeping this scene going is what we all want

toastman · Post by **toastman** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:48 pm

Xylene wrote:
MetaFox wrote:
Xylene wrote:Everything in the scene is getting so commercial.. it makes me sick. Again, I am not trying to be an ass or anything, but wasn't the scene started for FUN and FREE homebrew software for the Dreamcast not for profit.
Technically, KOS was developed with intentions of releasing commercial games for the Dreamcast from the start.
Since when is KOS "the scene"? It's part of the scene but not the scene itself. There were things people were messing with before KOS.

Since it is the backbone of everything we do, that's when KOS became the scene. And before you mention libdream, I'd like to remind you that KOS is the successor to libdream.
The only other thing out there is libronin, and only the DreamSNES really used that (AFAIK).

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:53 pm

toastman wrote:The only other thing out there is libronin, and only the DreamSNES really used that (AFAIK).

ScummVM and DreamSNES - ie: just Marcus and Peter's projects. I don't believe any other project uses it.

Phantom · Post by **Phantom** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:03 pm

goatdan wrote:That's the goal. I'm not trying to take away "FUN" or "FREE" things, but add to what already exists. As of this moment, there is no legal way to release Wolfenstein, Doom or Quake on the Cast. I'm trying to see if I can change that. I would like to see it, and it would open the door to other high-quality mods being released from developers.

It might be worth pointing out that even if the original ID Software levels are too expensive or unavailable, you could look for content that's made entirely by other people (I think they call these 'total conversions'). The engine itself can be used commercially (as long as the GPL is not violated ofcourse), so there's no problem there.