Shenmue Discs

The OK Pope · Post by **The OK Pope** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:02 pm

How many discs are supposed to come with Shenmue? I just picked up a preowned copy including discs labeled: Disc 1, Disc 2, Disc 3, and then a ODM disc from November 2000. Is this the way Shenmue was originally packaged?

guitsaru · Post by **guitsaru** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:05 pm

3 game discs and Shenmue Passport

BaldMonk · Post by **BaldMonk** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:34 pm

ODM???? Official Dreamcast Magazine???? Take it back and get your Passport disc... the ODM one didn't come with it. Well, you don't have to take it back, but the talking heads look very nice.

X525 · Post by **X525** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:12 am

BaldMonk wrote:ODM???? Official Dreamcast Magazine???? Take it back and get your Passport disc... the ODM one didn't come with it. Well, you don't have to take it back, but the talking heads look very nice.

lol...i think we should explain the talkin heads part

Skynet · Post by **Skynet** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:22 am

...but the talking heads look very nice.

Indeed they did!

Segata Sanshiro · Post by **Segata Sanshiro** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:42 am

Skynet wrote:
...but the talking heads look very nice.
Indeed they did!

Yeah, i imagine that Shenmue 3 could've looked this way if the DC was not murdered.... Maybe Yu Suzuki's team would've really squeezed them out of the DC if they had the chance to learn all the programming secrets and creative hacks!

ace · Post by **ace** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:26 am

They were misleading though. Cos the first time I bought shenmue my Disc 1 didnt work, so I had to settle for the passport till I could take it back, and those talking heads made me think the game looked better than it did. But since it still looked super sweet, I decided it didn't matter. I don't think Shenmue could ever look better than Shenmue 2. They were really pushing it with that one as it was.

-Keith

Segata Sanshiro · Post by **Segata Sanshiro** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:27 am

I have to disagree dreamer_68, but it will be a very long explanation so the only thing i'll say is that the PS1 showed an incredible evolution (graphically), remember the first games: Toshinden, NFS1, Tekken, Twisted Metal.... and remember the last generation: Tekken 3, Ridge Racer 4, GT, Quake 2, Chrono Cross... The change is so big that its almost unbelievable that it's the same console. What makes you think that the DC couldnt have had the same lifecycle (i dont know if i spelled that correctly

).

ace · Post by **ace** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:36 am

Because with the sheer number of characters the Shenmue games throw at you, that kind of rendering would slow the game to a complete halt.

-Keith

Segata Sanshiro · Post by **Segata Sanshiro** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:54 pm

the word is optimization: clever level design, mipmapping for the level (not present in Shen2), LOD for the models, prebuilt level entities that can also use LOD, or dynamic tesselation (used in sega Xtreme sports for the terrain), use the same mesh for different character models and just change the skins (in Kingpin there are dozens of NPCs and they share only 3 model meshes). Take advantage of the DCs strenghts... video memory, texture compression, full screen antialiasing and the ability to load the level geometry/model entities on the fly from the GD. With more time AM2's graphic engines could be optimised to run Shenmue 3 with "talkin' heads" graphic quality and consume less resources than Shenmue 2.... but this time will never come. Anyway i'm no game programmer, i work in game development from a just a year and cant possibly think of all the ways there are to squeeze more juice out of a given hardware.

Because with the sheer number of characters the Shenmue games throw at you, that kind of rendering would slow the game to a complete halt.

That is easily solved using LOD (level of detail). The engine i work with permits 4 levels of LOD (it's for PC games) those are 4 different model entities for the given character, the farther the model is from the camera the simpler mesh is used (around 200-300 polys), when it comes closer, the engine automatically swiches to the next more complex model.... so upfront and personal the models could easily have 5000 polys (the cars in GT3 for PS2 have 5000 polys each) and still achieve a decent framerate with 2 or 3 hi-rez models and more with less polys a little farher away. I dont know exactly what is the polycount on the "talking heads" but my guess is around 2500 and 3000 (for the visible part).

Anyway i'm no expert and dont know what the hell i'm talking about

, but im damn sure that Shenmue 2 is not the Dreamcast's hardware limit!!!!

ace · Post by **ace** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:07 pm

No, its definelty not the limit, but its probably pretty close. I dunno, you might be right, you've made some pretty good points that I didn't really take time to consider. Its a shame we will never get the chance to actually see the results of Shenmue 3 on the Dreamcast... oh well, make me happy Ive got a Box.

P.S. I think shenmue should come out on the PC

-Keith

Skynet · Post by **Skynet** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:54 pm

P.S. I think shenmue should come out on the PC

That it should! Load times would be decreased, graphics could be altered (if needed) so that it wouldn't slow at all.

BaldMonk · Post by **BaldMonk** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:41 am

Segata Sanshiro wrote:the word is optimization: clever level design, mipmapping for the level (not present in Shen2), LOD for the models, prebuilt level entities that can also use LOD, or dynamic tesselation (used in sega Xtreme sports for the terrain), use the same mesh for different character models and just change the skins (in Kingpin there are dozens of NPCs and they share only 3 model meshes). Take advantage of the DCs strenghts... video memory, texture compression, full screen antialiasing and the ability to load the level geometry/model entities on the fly from the GD. With more time AM2's graphic engines could be optimised to run Shenmue 3 with "talkin' heads" graphic quality and consume less resources than Shenmue 2.... but this time will never come. Anyway i'm no game programmer, i work in game development from a just a year and cant possibly think of all the ways there are to squeeze more juice out of a given hardware.

Because with the sheer number of characters the Shenmue games throw at you, that kind of rendering would slow the game to a complete halt.
That is easily solved using LOD (level of detail). The engine i work with permits 4 levels of LOD (it's for PC games) those are 4 different model entities for the given character, the farther the model is from the camera the simpler mesh is used (around 200-300 polys), when it comes closer, the engine automatically swiches to the next more complex model.... so upfront and personal the models could easily have 5000 polys (the cars in GT3 for PS2 have 5000 polys each) and still achieve a decent framerate with 2 or 3 hi-rez models and more with less polys a little farher away. I dont know exactly what is the polycount on the "talking heads" but my guess is around 2500 and 3000 (for the visible part).

Anyway i'm no expert and dont know what the hell i'm talking about , but im damn sure that Shenmue 2 is not the Dreamcast's hardware limit!!!!

DUDE!!! You definatly know your stuff. Yeah, I noticed that most of the building in Shenmue were using more polygons than they required... especially in the upper levels, which you can't see very close up anyway, so they would be better with fewer polygons at the top, and they could hav even been seperate objects from the lower levels as they didn't use any kind of meshsmoothing on the buildings, so holes wouldn't be seen. Another problem with using that amound of polygons, is actually a problem with the Dreamcast. I was told that it only used 3 point polys, and can't use 4 pointed very well. So for every one 4 point you would have, you end up with 2 3point ones dramatically increasing the amound of polys. I could be wrong tho.
A good example of LOD on the Dreamcast is TXR2... when your watching the replays, you can see in the back of the the field, your car is only the basic model, but the closer it gets, the more custom parts you've chosen for your car start to appear, like spoilers etc. That game isn't very well optimised tho

Segata Sanshiro · Post by **Segata Sanshiro** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:37 am

A good example of LOD on the Dreamcast is TXR2... when your watching the replays, you can see in the back of the the field, your car is only the basic model, but the closer it gets, the more custom parts you've chosen for your car start to appear, like spoilers etc.

Exactly!!! That is a good example, maybe not so good since the LOD change should not be that obvious, but shows what we are talking about.

About the 3 and 4 pointed pollys:
In my opinion all the models in DC games (as well as 99% of all other games) are made of triangular pollys, by models i mean everything that is not level geometry, like player, NPC, toys, items, soda cans...
On the other hand level geometry is made out of 4 pointed polygons and 3 pointed where more detail is needed. Maybe the most obvious example is the Tomb Raider series where everything is made out os squares. That is because the engines use a tecnique similar ot BSP (quake, half life, etc.) to optimise the ammount of visible polygons in the leve geometry. The newer engines like "ratchet and clank", "jack and daxter" and the latest "unreal tournament" for PC dont use BSP, in that way they can achieve more complex scenery, but they need a polygon pushing power that our beloved Dreamcast doesnt have

!!

BSP: i dont know the exact tecnical definition, but its an algorythm that calculates non visible surfaces and removes them, by non visible i mean a building that is behind another, stuff thats behind the corner, the back part of a column... etc.
Recent PS2 games dont use that, the reason is that if you use BSP you cant have concave surfaces and curved stuff as level geometry, thats why we see a lot of slowdown in PS2 games (the fight withe the boss on the small planet in "ratchet and clank 2" has so much slowdown that makes it hard to control).

Segata Sanshiro · Post by **Segata Sanshiro** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:55 am

Here are some simple explanations of BSP for those interested:

Simplist explanation I can think of (bit more complicated but it will get the point acrossed)...

Think of your level as a building.

As you stand inside a room in the building all the doors and windows are open. Each of these doors and windows represent a portal.

As you look out a door (portal) you can see into a hallway. This hallway is another region of the BSP tree. Don't worry much about that, since unless you are programming you will never see it.

If you move into the hallway, you can see a lot of other doors (portals). In a couple of rooms you can see from one room, through the hallway and into the next room. That is generally something that you will want to avoid as it will cause all three rooms to be rendered at once.

Ok, hopefully this wont be *too* detailed.

You have a set of polygons. To start pick one and extend it into an infinite plane. Each polygon that plane intersects gets split into two polygons. You then seperate the remaining polygons into two groups, one group for all on one side of the plane, and the other group on the opposite side (basically those in front, and those behind. Then for each group you do the same thing. You end up with a tree, a binary space partitioned tree. Like this:
Code: Select all
                           First Poly
                             /    \
                            /      \
              (polys in front)    (polys behind)
                          /          \
                         /            \
                  Poly from         Poly from
                  front group       behind group
                   /    \              /    \
               (front)  (behind)    (front) (behind)
                /   \     /   \       /  \     /  \
                               ...
And it keeps going like that until all groups are divided.

BaldMonk · Post by **BaldMonk** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:38 am

Makes total sence to me... for example again... TXR2... although it shouldn't be obvious, it sometimes doesn't draw the polygons in till late... especially on the replays, but in Shenmue, and because it loads sections when you enter a house, or an outside area, take the Suzuki house, you have one door on your side of the room open, and open the door on the other side, and walk to one side of the hallway, you can see straight through to the other side. Well, thats not the BEST example, but its a start