I am ready to pay for an emulator.

Ian Micheal · Post by **Ian Micheal** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:03 am

To me Ender your saying it's a feeling and it does not feel right none of that is fact.Just your feelings. debate based on feeling is not fact. Your leting Emotions get-in-the-way.

Points you defended were your feelings.

karsten · Post by **karsten** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:09 am

Ender wrote: If you go back through the thread, it kinda goes something like this:

-Let's have an emulator contest!
-I disagree morally/ethically (Me, Will Sams & 138)
-But emulation is great! (Ian)
-That's not what we have a problem with (Me, Will Sams & 138)
-But emulation is great! (Ian)
-Ok, let's try to explain exact reasons why we have a problem with it(Me and Will Sams)
-But your reasons are wrong(Ian)
-You seem to be misreading our reasons, let's try to explain again.(Us)
-But your resaons are still wrong, but rather than explain myself clearly an succinctly, I'm going to ramble on for a half page with a bunch of propoganda, while giving the people that know nothing about programming the wrong impression of what you are saying(Ian)
-Ok, now I have to try to defend myself(Us)

Repeat the last two.

you're being biased in this analisys.

oh, before i forget, IAN is not alone. lots of people agrees with him i'm one, darc is another and lots of people who got tired after 4 pages of discussions are.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:13 am

quzar wrote:The thing is, in your summary, even though you say now that each brought up points, you said that the pro side (Ian) was just repeating the same thing over and over and that you(con side) were bringing up points and explaining things calmly, which casts a horribly negative light on the pro side to anyone who reads that without reading the rest of the thread. How is that a discussion or a debate? I believe that constitutes propaganda moreso that what the pro side(Ian ) was saying.

The thing is that I never said that. I said that Ian rambled on and on, and kept saying "Emulation is good." I never said that he didn't make any other points. Possibly misrepresentation, and if that is the case, then I apologize, it was not my intent. It was more to show why I was saying what I was saying than anything else. I mean, in the post above that, I was made out to be the bad guy, so I figured I'd just post how we got to that point. I personally felt misrepresented.

the point is that even if you have a contest like this, you are not paying someone for results because there is no garuntee that anyone will get anything. The coders are still doing this for fun, but also have another incentive, which isnt a bad thing.

Either way, it is up to the author of the original emulator to decide whether they want to allow it to be ported, or if they want to allow money to be given to the porter etc. I think that would be right, and possibly that you would agree with it.

I can agree with that.

Ian Micheal wrote:To me Ender your saying it's a feeling and it does not feel right none of that is fact.Just your feelings. debate based on feeling is not fact. Your leting Emotions get-in-the-way.

Points you defended were your feelings.

Could you use the word "feeling" any more times? What does "debate based on feeling is not fact" even mean?

Letting my emotions get in the way of what?

Ok, let's get this straight. I have an opinion based on my personal feelings on the matter. I never expected to try to defend my feelings. However, you brought up counterpoints, which I volleyed with generally accepted "facts." I never said anything about it being illegal. In fact, in more than one instance, I clearly stated that what I was saying was based on a moral/ethical standpoint.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:17 am

karsten wrote:you're being biased in this analisys.

You are correct.

oh, before i forget, IAN is not alone. lots of people agrees with him i'm one, darc is another and lots of people who got tired after 4 pages of discussions are.

Didn't say that he was alone. He just happened to be the major poster on the pro side. Just like there are other people who posted on the con side that I didn't write down.

I'm not alone either. Does it matter? No. This is a discussion. There is no right or wrong.

Post by **Quzar** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:31 am

Could you use the word "feeling" any more times? What does "debate based on feeling is not fact" even mean?

not that hard. missing a few words "a debate based on a felling is not a fact".

you said you dont attack people yet you attack Ian right now for using the way he said what he did.

I figured my "it is up to the original authors" point would have ended it. Basically it dosn't really matter whether or not you, or me or anybody else but the author thinks it is morally or ethically correct to give money to the porter or themself.

Ian Micheal · Post by **Ian Micheal** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:52 am

quzar wrote:
Could you use the word "feeling" any more times? What does "debate based on feeling is not fact" even mean?
not that hard. missing a few words "a debate based on a felling is not a fact".

you said you dont attack people yet you attack Ian right now for using the way he said what he did.

I figured my "it is up to the original authors" point would have ended it. Basically it dosn't really matter whether or not you, or me or anybody else but the author thinks it is morally or ethically correct to give money to the porter or themself.

Now This is Really what i wanted to say.

------------------

Now ender
When a few people bring There morally or ethically feelings into a debate about facts it ends up like this.Why should any one try force "morally or ethically" points of view when there not fact but your point of view every one can make there own point of view up. And they Dont need to be told it should not be done because of this or that Or you have to let them know whats right and it's what is right to you not me or most of the world Emulation is one of the most loved and active scenes.

It's Up to the people That are wanting to support and enter . You said you would not enter so really what was your point. Other then to stop the contest and keep the current status quo.

----------------

toastman · Post by **toastman** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:50 am

I'm not going to argue the merits, or lack thereof, of the whole "emu contest" idea.
However, I will say that a lot of people are misunderstanding Ender.

Ender: I don't like the idea. Here are my reasons.
Others: But it's a good idea.
Ender: I just don't like it. I don't think it's worth while.
Others: But it's a really good idea.
Ender: Like I said, I can't bring myself to like the idea.
Others: But it will be really cool.
Ender: I just see it as ethically wrong.
Others: Listen, it's not illegal and people have done it before. It's not wrong.
Ender: Maybe not technically, but I still don't like the idea.
ad infinitum

Ender expressed the fact that he didn't like the idea, and now everybody thinks they have to change Ender's mind about this. The proper reply to Ender would've been: "Well, I can see how you can feel that way, however we are still going to procede."

By the way, I don't think the contest is such a hot idea either. Reread BlackAura's and DirtySanchez's posts and you'll have my concerns in a nutshell.

CyberMick · Post by **CyberMick** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:35 am

I know what ppl are saying about paying for an emulator and no one likes the idea of paying for an emulator.

However i do fell that a small incentive like a few chipping in a few bucks may be a good idea by way of us normal non coders to say a big thank you for all the coders in this scene who have put in countless hours to bring us these emus nd keep that little white box still in use rather than gathering up dust in a corner some where.

Now i know its very easy to criticise ppl who port emus to the DC from free source rather than making one from scratch but even porting does require some skill and understanding to make it work cross-platfrom i mean if it was written for a PC you have to understand how the DC works and try and optimise it for use on the DC.

Take the Genesis emu for the DC to my knowledge both Ian and BA are working on one but cant get it to run full speed with sound. This in itself is a challenge and a difficult task to bring us a emulator that can run almost perfectly like DreamSNES while excellent still doesnt run full speed.

I dont think it hurts us to award a prize to a coder who has put in a lot of time and effort so that we can go down memory lane with our favourite consoles and its like our way of saying thank you for your hard work.

Also most ppl on here who use these emulators i hope they dont expect ppl to believe that they only play PD Roms on these emus as that is a bare faced lie.

StellaDC was a great emu as it was like a trip down memory lane seeing an atari 2600 emulated.

I agree homebrew games are more original but emulators are a nice past time to.

I would love to see a fully working Genesis emu or a Speccy 48k/128K emu full speed and sound on the DC.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:16 pm

quzar wrote:
Could you use the word "feeling" any more times? What does "debate based on feeling is not fact" even mean?
not that hard. missing a few words "a debate based on a felling is not a fact".

you said you dont attack people yet you attack Ian right now for using the way he said what he did.

I figured my "it is up to the original authors" point would have ended it. Basically it dosn't really matter whether or not you, or me or anybody else but the author thinks it is morally or ethically correct to give money to the porter or themself.

Ok, look. Take that as an attack if you want. The fact of the matter is that I never argued the legalities. Ian kept bringing up counterpoints for things that I wasn't even arguing. My entire side of the argument was based purely upon ethics/morals.

Ian Micheal wrote: Now ender
When a few people bring There morally or ethically feelings into a debate about facts it ends up like this.Why should any one try force "morally or ethically" points of view when there not fact but your point of view every one can make there own point of view up. And they Dont need to be told it should not be done because of this or that Or you have to let them know whats right and it's what is right to you not me or most of the world Emulation is one of the most loved and active scenes.

It's Up to the people That are wanting to support and enter . You said you would not enter so really what was your point. Other then to stop the contest and keep the current status quo.

I didn't bring morals or ethics into a debate about facts. This was never about facts. I was fine just saying my piece and letting it go, but you were attacking my opinion, so I felt that I should back myself up. Really, I didn't get going on this convo until you went off about how if I use KOS, I'm not using my own code.

pepitonet · Post by **pepitonet** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:15 pm

first of all i must say you guys are pissing me off ,for making me post twice on this thread about the samething(i hate posting too much as you can see for my posting ranks).

This has gone from an already annoying discussion between two great DC supporters to a royal Rumble, please lets get back to the subject that this thread was supposted to based on.
Ender don't feel cheated the only reason i mencioned you was because you were the main person in the discussion against the ideas, never meant to say that you were the only one and the Ian weren't in the same, but you were and still the main person as why we are arguing something that as far as my "opinion" goes has no importance.Why trying to gratificate the efford of someone that keeps our beloved dc alive is wrong, if he were to demand money then i would jump with you and protest against it, but when the money is given freely and with no preasure i see no harm on it.

Again that is just my opinion and noone has to agree with it but you all have to respect it just like we (I) respect yours.

Post by **Quzar** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:31 pm

well put. opinions are opinions, as long as they arn't being forced people usually don't have a problem.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:50 am

I agree. I personally don't feel that I was pushing my opinion, merely defending it. Like I said, I would have dropped this long ago, but counterpoints kept coming up.

popley · Post by **popley** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:58 am

i would put in money for a emulation contest for the winner's, but not to buy a emulator.

Post by **Quzar** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:04 am

yea, that is the whole point, not to pay for the emulator but to give incentive and such for a contest to make an emulator.

Post by **Quzar** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:27 am

yea, that is the whole point, not to pay for the emulator but to give incentive and such for a contest to make an emulator.

vicviper74 · Post by **vicviper74** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:28 am

hmm i kinda like the idea MAKE A POT for a emu not yet created or rather improved. we need some kinda incentive

MetaFox · Post by **MetaFox** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:38 pm

You can't have a contest that will pay people for porting software. It is unethical and immoral (not to mention in some cases illegal - depending on the license agreement) for someone to port someone else's work, and then expect to be paid for it.

If the contest stipulates that the emulator was coded from scratch, including the CPU core, then the contest would be alright. But, I don't think you'd get very many people (if any) willing to put in the time and effort for that.

CyberMick · Post by **CyberMick** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:31 pm

MetaFox wrote: If the contest stipulates that the emulator was coded from scratch, including the CPU core, then the contest would be alright. But, I don't think you'd get very many people (if any) willing to put in the time and effort for that.

That is very true.

Lunchbox · Post by **Lunchbox** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:17 pm

how about we give away a different prize than money? would that be ok?

Phantom · Post by **Phantom** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:30 pm

MetaFox wrote:You can't have a contest that will pay people for porting software. It is unethical and immoral (not to mention in some cases illegal - depending on the license agreement) for someone to port someone else's work, and then expect to be paid for it.

I don't really see a problem there. Paying someone a one-time fee for his effort is completely unrelated to the software that's involved.

Even selling a port commercially would be (morally) ok with me, as long as a part of the profits (if any) is contributed back to the original author(s).

Btw, what's your opinion on companies like Redhat?