Dsnes team.PLEASE re add the option to disable Transparenci

HoRnEyDvL · Post by **HoRnEyDvL** » Sat Feb 23, 2002 7:40 pm

Thers always people saying Zsnes CANT be ported & things Like that but never say the main reasons . Why Cant it be ported?. Why cant They try it?. Why cant they ask for the scorce code.

-Johnick- · Post by **-Johnick-** » Sat Feb 23, 2002 8:31 pm

Boogerman wrote: It's not getting worse at all though. Their goal is not to give the people a playable emulator, but to get perfect emulation...

Could you turn the BG off on a SNES? Could you think "Transparancies blow" and turn them off? no, so in many ways, DreamSNES is getting better at their goal.

You do have to remember that this is their project and they seem to like the fact that people enjoy it, but are basically going for perfect emulation, not fancy speed-up options

HELLO!,this is not a p3 1ghz we are talking about its the Dreamcast which is more or less the same as a p200mmx with a nice video card that means sweet fa(you know what fa stands for right?)when it comes to snes games.

this isnt Mame,pefect emulation is not an option when the platform cannot perform such tasks.speed comes first.if you had a p200mmx would you use snesx or zsnes?.what is the point in accurate emulation if the platform you run it on cant keep up with it.speed is the issue.this isnt mamedev,nobody is gonna give the"get a new pc"line here because we are stuck with what we have.live with it.its the same reason we dont have a cps2 emu = answer =we dont have the hardware for it.either Dreamsnes re add's the option to disable Transparencies and add an option to lower the sound sample rate or we will never have full speed snes games on this emu.

peskypescado · Post by **peskypescado** » Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:40 pm

HoRnEyDvL wrote: Thers always people saying Zsnes CANT be ported & things Like that but never say the main reasons . Why Cant it be ported?. Why cant They try it?. Why cant they ask for the scorce code.

The reason you can't port Zsnes is that it's written in a lot of assembly. Assembly is different that C, Pascal, Basic, VB, etc... It's written specifically for the hardware. (Forgive me for the gross oversimplification) When you write in a higher level language like C, the compiler interprets the code into something the machine can run. It's far easier to work with C and you can modify it so that it will work on another platform, but assembly is totally different. "Porting" assembly would be like taking your gasoline burning engine out and replacing it with a diesel motor so you wouldn't have to run gas. Yes, I guess you "converted" your car to diesel, but really you just replaced everything. You can't "convert" or port assembly.

HoRnEyDvL · Post by **HoRnEyDvL** » Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:56 pm

Snes runs so slow & Sh** On my P3 500 But Zsnes Runs Fine Just Lags abit when i put the graphic resolution heaps high. We Need @ find something taht will make DreamSnes work Fast With Sound

Boogerman · Post by **Boogerman** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:21 am

-Johnick- wrote:
Boogerman wrote: It's not getting worse at all though. Their goal is not to give the people a playable emulator, but to get perfect emulation...

Could you turn the BG off on a SNES? Could you think "Transparancies blow" and turn them off? no, so in many ways, DreamSNES is getting better at their goal.

You do have to remember that this is their project and they seem to like the fact that people enjoy it, but are basically going for perfect emulation, not fancy speed-up options
HELLO!,this is not a p3 1ghz we are talking about its the Dreamcast which is more or less the same as a p200mmx with a nice video card that means sweet fa(you know what fa stands for right?)when it comes to snes games.

this isnt Mame,pefect emulation is not an option when the platform cannot perform such tasks.speed comes first.if you had a p200mmx would you use snesx or zsnes?.what is the point in accurate emulation if the platform you run it on cant keep up with it.speed is the issue.this isnt mamedev,nobody is gonna give the"get a new pc"line here because we are stuck with what we have.live with it.its the same reason we dont have a cps2 emu = answer =we dont have the hardware for it.either Dreamsnes re add's the option to disable Tranceparencies and add an option to lower the sound sample rate or we will never have full speed snes games on this emu.

Heh, I love it when people get angry over a small thing. My P200 can run ZSNES perfectly, DC has more power than that and is going to be optimised into SH4 ASM therfore meaning perfect emulation with some processing power left over

. How do you come to the conclusion that we won't see it full-speed? Done some tests have we?

CPS2 could be emulated if there were smaller games. CPS2 wasn't an amazing piece of kit, but hell, could it push sprites!

Back to DreamSNES, don't forget that the reason Snes9x is slower than ZSNES on the PC is because of the assembly code in it. It's written in x86. An emulator in SH4 would have the same results, maybe better because SH4 architechture is more advanced than x86. I don't know how long it will take, but there will be full-speed with sound emulation and thats what the team is going for and what they KNOW is possible

-Johnick- · Post by **-Johnick-** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:58 am

Boogerman wrote: Heh, I love it when people get angry over a small thing. My P200 can run ZSNES perfectly, DC has more power than that and is going to be optimised into SH4 ASM therfore meaning perfect emulation with some processing power left over . How do you come to the conclusion that we won't see it full-speed? Done some tests have we?

CPS2 could be emulated if there were smaller games. CPS2 wasn't an amazing piece of kit, but hell, could it push sprites!

Back to DreamSNES, don't forget that the reason Snes9x is slower than ZSNES on the PC is because of the assembly code in it. It's written in x86. An emulator in SH4 would have the same results, maybe better because SH4 architechture is more advanced than x86. I don't know how long it will take, but there will be full-speed with sound emulation and thats what the team is going for and what they KNOW is possible

WRONG!.Segagen was Written by Sega,with an official devkit,in sh4 asm,and it still didnt run most games without frameskipping enabled.Frameskipping = not full speed.keep in mind that the Megadrive/Genisis is an easier machine to emulate then the Snes(no fancy mode 7 gfx tricks,no fm sound etc)so where does that leave you?.

what makes you think the DC is more powerfull then a pc when it comes to emulation?,or maybe you're comparing it to you're amazing p200 that plays snes games at full speed.full speed?,maybe with the dos build in mode x with the sound turned off on SOME games but otherwise im afraid i dont believe you.you're a liar and not a very good one.now running at a "Playable" framerate(25+ fps) is another matter.Dreamsnes may well get games running at a playable frame rate IF they re add the ability to disable Transparencies and have an ajustable sound sample rate.

-Johnick- · Post by **-Johnick-** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 11:25 am

Katana wrote: Johnick- i wasn't trying to attack you, i was just sick of people talking so much trash about .95

I totally agree the layer background option would really be nice to have again. If it is its no doubt if its in the next release it would rock! The progress made is quite nice though, much smoother fullscreen then .94. Plus the save feature(which needs tweaking will rock). I think it gave us a good idea what to be expecting in the future. Its getting closer to 100%

agreed,but its a bit like the way the official build of mame has gone lately.
Raster effects for Neogeo and Cps2 games are on and there is no way to turn them off.where as you might have been able to play Super Street Fighter 2 or Galaxy Fight on a pII 300 at a playable frame rate before,now you need soemthing more like a pII 450.

you hardly notice the raster effects in Galaxy Fight and as for Cps2 games setting the monitor to flip fixed the raster problem on most games.

Boogerman · Post by **Boogerman** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 1:50 pm

Was Smash pack optimised as a general emulator? The games it leagally came with have no frame-skip and thats what it was made for. It never said on the back of the box "Play every Genesis game FULL SPEED!".

Anyways... PC Emulation has to be generic. With so many PC configurations around, it can't be specific to a certain type of hardware. With the DC it is a lot easier. One set of hardware, code for it

Have you played Bleem for DC? MGS full-speed, sound, gfx improvements. Yes, it takes some shortcuts by only emulating what is needed for that game, but it's still hella fast. I agree with you that it would be sweet to have these features back but it's not their goal. People seem to think that they are owed something in a way by these guys when in fact they are just coding something in their spare time. Hell, we're lucky they even relase ANYTHING to the public.

The DC is better for emulation than a similar specced machine (Obviously it's not gonna kick a 1ghz ass

)

Heh, "I'm not a very good liar"... Don't take it so personally man, just pointing out some truths

Anywhoo, my specs = p200MMX, 64mb, NVida Riva 128 4mb gfx, Aureal A3D2.0 sound. ZSNES (latest) DOS build, mode X with full sound and full sampling rate. Full-speed Mario amongst several other games anyone?

Also, keep this up man. It's not an attack on you man, don't take it so personally... although when you do, it is usually the funniest post I read of the day

-Johnick- · Post by **-Johnick-** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 3:15 pm

Boogerman wrote:
Have you played Bleem for DC? MGS full-speed, sound, gfx improvements. Yes, it takes some shortcuts by only emulating what is needed for that game, but it's still hella fast. I agree with you that it would be sweet to have these features back but it's not their goal. People seem to think that they are owed something in a way by these guys when in fact they are just coding something in their spare time. Hell, we're lucky they even relase ANYTHING to the public.

Heh, "I'm not a very good liar"... Don't take it so personally man, just pointing out some truths Anywhoo, my specs = p200MMX, 64mb, NVida Riva 128 4mb gfx, Aureal A3D2.0 sound. ZSNES (latest) DOS build, mode X with full sound and full sampling rate. Full-speed Mario amongst several other games anyone?

Also, keep this up man. It's not an attack on you man, don't take it so personally... although when you do, it is usually the funniest post I read of the day

Yes but not the MGS pack.i did play Gran turismo pack and yes it works very well but dont forget its using every trick in the book to make the game look that good.its almost the same as the Hle method used for N64 emu's.not a good example to prove you're point.some people nagged about the fmv being skippy but imo for the hardware randys mdec code was spot on.pitty randy's a prat and i hope bleem eventually get's warez'd to death

.

no we dont owe them anything but the opposite is also true.i hate the entire "you cant say anything bad,they coded an emu" mentality.plz people,pull the tounge out.

i just find the Transparency option being removed ridiculous.im not saying a full speed snes emu on the DC is impossible.just not a full speed port of snesx,and plz you keep refering to Zsnes running on you're p200mmx.we are not talking about Zsnes.as for you're truths about running snes games full speed on you're p200mmx i already mentioned mode x.you cant enable interpolation in that video mode so you still have a big Handicap especially with games that need it.you can play Mario(the launch title,wow

)full speed but i bet your cant play Pilot wings or Starfox full speed so no you cant play All snes games full speed.

fyi even Revenge of Shinobi had slowdown at some stages so no segagen still isnt full speed.ive never coded an emu before but ive talked about this topic with a lot of emu authors(R.Belmont - Modeler,Dayvee - FinalBurn)and they all agree that whilst there is obviosly a difference between Intel-based processors and the Dreamcast's architectures,all in all the DC is more or less(prolly less according to Belmont)the same as a p200 when it comes to the kinda raw proccessing power needed for emulation.

im not taking anything personally,im not gonna wake up in the middle of the night from a nightmare about sluggish snes games on my DC so dont worry ill be here for a while

.

Boogerman · Post by **Boogerman** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 4:06 pm

"and i hope bleem eventually get's warez'd to death"

Ahh, the PC sk3n3rs words

But anyways, the reference to ZSNES was quite accurate as, yes, SNES9x is sluggish, but what if all that C was replaced by ASM ala ZSNES? Speed increase of course

. Maybe when they are done with it and your regular SNES games are running on your big-screen TV at full-speed the way they are supposed too, they will also add options to speed the emulation of DSP and SuperFX games up, just for completion.

Oh,a nd I don't have nigtmares about sluggish SNES emulation... I have nightmares about poor sound emulation in SegaGEN!

-Johnick- · Post by **-Johnick-** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 4:29 pm

Boogerman wrote:yes, SNES9x is sluggish, but what if all that C was replaced by ASM ala ZSNES? Speed increase of course.

wtf,why not just write a new emu from scratch?.might aswell if you're gonna replace that much code.you have high hopes my friend.oh well,i can only hope you're right but i doubt it

.

Boogerman · Post by **Boogerman** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 4:30 pm

Well thats what they are doing. Hence the core in the latest version is written in SH4 ASM

-Johnick- · Post by **-Johnick-** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:00 pm

Boogerman wrote: Well thats what they are doing. Hence the core in the latest version is written in SH4 ASM

i can understand them adding an asm core because the core does most of the work.but as for the rest?

Boogerman · Post by **Boogerman** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:41 pm

Check the latest relase... maybe not needed to port much else over

perh · Post by **perh** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 8:12 pm

Sorry if I go around shattering illusions here.

As for transparency, we only got about 1% speed increasy in the games we tested.
Sure, we can put the option back. Most of the improvement is probably illusionary, though.

The majority of the CPU time is used in the sound, DMA and CPU emulation, not the graphics.

And as full fullscreen/not fullscreen: There is absolutely no performance difference whatsoever.
The scaling is done using the graphics hardware that otherwise is totally idle in DreamSNES (except for in the menu and especially the screensaver).
We have the framerate and emulation-speed percentage scores to prove it.

And as for bleemcast beeing full-speed: The Playstation is actually much easier to emulate correctly.

mirrorsaw_2000 · Post by **mirrorsaw_2000** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 4:43 am

Since you're here and answering questions, would it be possible to get an option to change the sound sampling rate? Would that provide a performance boost?

Thanks for addressing the transparency issue...although I'd still like to see the option re-enabled...

Any chance of a manual-frameskip option? and/or a FPS counter?

-Johnick- · Post by **-Johnick-** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 2:03 pm

perh wrote: As for transparency, we only got about 1% speed increasy in the games we tested.
Sure, we can put the option back. Most of the improvement is probably illusionary, though.

Nope,unless something was broken since V0.9.3.ive Tried V0.9.6 and yes its a big improvement but it runs at about the same speed as V0.9.3 with the Transparecies off.only difference is you can play games like Zelda and FF4(2 us) that need them.what games have you tested?,last time with the new saving you said you only tested it on 1 game.if this is the case id reccomend trying a couple rather then 1.Super Aleste,Super R-Type and Mario All Stars are good examples.

Props for the new build though

.id also like to see a variable sound sample rate option too if you're ever considering putting it in.

-Johnick- · Post by **-Johnick-** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 2:09 pm

mirrorsaw_2000 wrote:
Any chance of a manual-frameskip option? and/or a FPS counter?

i second that too.whilst most games are now in sync with the sound and no longer lag the framerate still looks very choppy on some games.Mario All Stars looks like its running at about 10-15 fps.it would be nice if we could see for ourself.i realise this is not a critical option but it would take very little time to do it.

mirrorsaw_2000 · Post by **mirrorsaw_2000** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 4:02 pm

The combination of a FPS counter and a manual frameskip option (maybe with an "AUTO" setting, as is the default right now) would allow people to more accurately guage speed increases as new versions come out...right now it's pretty subjective. Really, any simple way to benchmark speed would be nice...."Mario Allstars runs at 60% with no frameskipping/stereo sound, 70% with frameskip 1/stereo, 100% with frameskip 2/mono" etc...

Dante · Post by **Dante** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:34 pm

-Johnick- wrote:
Boogerman wrote: It's not getting worse at all though. Their goal is not to give the people a playable emulator, but to get perfect emulation...

Could you turn the BG off on a SNES? Could you think "Transparancies blow" and turn them off? no, so in many ways, DreamSNES is getting better at their goal.

You do have to remember that this is their project and they seem to like the fact that people enjoy it, but are basically going for perfect emulation, not fancy speed-up options
HELLO!,this is not a p3 1ghz we are talking about its the Dreamcast which is more or less the same as a p200mmx with a nice video card that means sweet fa(you know what fa stands for right?)when it comes to snes games.

HELLO! This is not a 'Legacy' x68 PC-specific processor we're talking about, this is the Hitachi SH4 RISC processor which performs at floating points operations triple that of a well-specced Pentium II 266; which means a lot when it comes to SNES games. (minus the fancy filtering effects and lowering the sound quality a notch, I bet I could achieve 60fps on my spare PC - PII 266 - with zSNES, and that was in the days of version 0.800, not to mention the thousands of speed improvements which have occured since then)

While I'm not saying that it will be easy, from what I've seen with version 0.9.6, my faith has been restored in that the Dreamcast is perfectly capable of a full-speed SNES emulator as close to perfection as NesterDC is.