Religious Debate

Phantom · Post by **Phantom** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:45 am

John Earman wrote:One might have hoped that this survey would provide an answer to the question: If we believe modern physics, is the world deterministic or not? But there is no simple and clean answer. The theories of modern physics paint many different and seemingly incommensurable pictures of the world; not only is there no unified theory of physics, there is not even agreement on the best route to getting one. And even within a particular theory say, QM or GTR there is no clear verdict. This is a reflection of the fact that determinism is bound up with some of the most important unresolved foundations problems for these theories. While this linkage makes for frustration if one is in search of a quick and neat answer to the above question, it also makes determinism an exciting topic for the philosophy of science.

Keep an open mind.

edub1030 · Post by **edub1030** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:38 am

repling to lartrak's comment about there has been no proof that Jesus was devine, there is in the bible. just gotta read it to find it. God spoke audibly three times that is recorded in the bible. All three times he specifically said the this was his Son, the beloved, whom He has approved. and he was specifically talking about and to Jesus and onlookers. But again, we come back to the basis of our disagreement. Whether or not you believe in God will dictate how you view proof of Jesus, etc., etc. For those who believe that the Earth was just put here, or just formed out of an explosion or implosion in space, try this at home. take an old watch, one that's broken from home, take it completely apart, and put it in a box. then shake it up. now open the box. the watch is all put back together and works right? nope. so how can something as complex as the Earth just be formed or put here like it had nowhere else to go? think about how the Earth is just the right distance from the sun. any closer and life wouldn't be possible, we'd burn up. any farther and we'd freeze. or how about our bodies are created, our brains, our cells, creation in general(emulation!!!!!!). i just can't see all this being put here for sh*ts and giggles, or because soemone was bored, or even as somethings experimentaion project. again, it's just MY beliefs.

Firthy2002 · Post by **Firthy2002** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:57 am

edub1030 wrote:repling to lartrak's comment about there has been no proof that Jesus was devine, there is in the bible. just gotta read it to find it.

Except there's no proof the stuff in the Bible actually happened.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:00 pm

But there is proof that stuff in the bible never actually happened. I think the bible is arbitrary anyway. Jesus was a good guy that did a lot of good things and taught others to do good things as well. Most christian people praise and follow god/jesus, but they don't actually follow his teachings.

The bible should be read as a way to live your life, not as a story of how somebody else lived theirs.

BlackAura · Post by **BlackAura** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:35 pm

It's interesting that I can't find any decent web pages on this...

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect ... bular.html
http://stardate.org/resources/ssguide/planet_form.html

They don't really explain how the planets form in great detail, but they give the general idea of it.

Oh, and if the Earth were nearer to the sun (or further from the sun), as long as the temperature was right for liquid water to form, there could still be something like the life forms that exist.

curt_grymala · Post by **curt_grymala** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:54 pm

If you really want to take this from an existentialist point of view, there is no proof that anything ever happened. You can't even prove that I have made this post. You can assume that I have made the post, because you perceive it to be that way. The bottom-line to my faith is this: I believe in God. I believe in Christ. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe some of the things in the Bible, but I realize that it was transcribed and translated by humans. There are a lot of things that were originally written, but (for some reason unbeknownst to myself) have been left out of the Bible. There are also quite a few historical texts (outside of the Christian world) referring to the miracles attributed to Jesus within the Bible. Take a good world history course, and you may learn something. Christians weren't the only ones talking about the miracles Jesus performed. We are just the only ones that choose to believe he was our messiah. You believe what you want to believe. I will believe what I want to believe. In the end, when the Supreme Being (whomever that may be) takes a look back at our lives, we will have a chance to change our minds about our faith. If we choose to believe that the Being standing before us exists, we will go to Heaven (or whatever you want to call it). If we choose to believe that S/He still doesn't exist, even though S/He is standing in front of us, we may not be so lucky. If there is no Supreme Being, I still wil be proud of the way I lived my life, and I feel that much of the rest of the world (as many people as I can touch with my actions and words) will be proud of the way I lived my life, as well.

edub1030 · Post by **edub1030** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:55 pm

what never happened in the bible? and what proof is there specifically?

Veggita2099 · Post by **Veggita2099** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:03 pm

It just depends on what people want to beleive. IF you don't want to beleive in the bible, you will find plenty of excuses and reasons to beleive it is false. However if you do wish to beleive what the bible says you will also find plenty of things to prove it is right.

IT still amazes me how a person who things religion is a joke gets so nervous when somebody starts talking about it.

curt_grymala · Post by **curt_grymala** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:08 pm

If I were to read everything in the Bible (mostly the New Testament) literally, I would find a lot of great stories, a few gardening tips (make sure you seed good soil, not rocky soil), and a bit else, but I would find very little to base a religion on. However, if you read it as I believe it was intended (as a collection of parables), it gives you a very good guideline upon which to base your life. Just like Ender said, it is a good book to base your life on. Jesus was a good guy that did a lot of great stuff, and taught others to do good. I don't know of any doctrine that has ever disputed that. If you choose not to believe He was a deity, that's your choice. I am not a deity, so it is not my place to change your mind. However, I can tell you that you will lose absolutely nothing, and you possibly have a lot to gain, if you choose to follow Him as a leader and a wonderful teacher.

In addition: why is there so much debate in the world over which faith is right? Almost every person that believes in a higher power believes in the same God. We may all have different names for Him/Her, but it's still the same God. Allah, the Jewish God, the Christian God; they are all the same God. There is even speculation that the God in which we as Christians and Jews believe (El) is one of the gods that the Romans, Greeks and other polytheistic societies believed in (If you don't believe this, read a couple different versions of the Old Testament, and see if there aren't references to El being a lesser God. Look at the Ten Commandments and see if God is not a jealous God, who will have no other Gods before Him). Buddha: he was a good guy that did a lot of great things an taught others to do good. Hmm. That sounds familiar, doesn't it? And on and on.

edub1030 · Post by **edub1030** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:12 pm

i totally agree with veggita. everyone doesn't believe the same thing, so it'll be pretty hard for either side to explain to the other their views. but we all do have something in common. we all agree that dcemulation rocks hardcore, and that we all love and enjoy video games. can i get a witness?

p.s. who got nervous?

Nyarlathotep · Post by **Nyarlathotep** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:15 pm

edub1030 wrote:what never happened in the bible? and what proof is there specifically?

The entire of Revelations; the proof being it never happened

FACT: amongst scholars Revelations is widely dismissed as the most apocryphal part of the entire bible, yet is also the most often quoted by 'Christians'

edub1030 · Post by **edub1030** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:23 pm

depends. are you looking at it literally or figuratively? the majority of revelations (which is a book of prophecy) has already happened. it 's a very deep and complex book of the bible that is hard to understand, that unfortunatley is discredited by "scholars". AGAIN. it comes back around to if you believe the bible. if you do, does it make sense to believe only the parts you want to, and throw away to parts that don't "make sense or don't conform to your life"? you either believe the bible entirely or, not.

Nyarlathotep · Post by **Nyarlathotep** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 2:33 pm

edub1030 wrote:you either believe the bible entirely or, not.

um.... no.

Do you consider menstruating women something that needs to be shunned?

Do you not mix dairy products with pork based products?

Do you not eat meat products on fridays?

Do you do no work whatsoever on sundays?

Do you give a tithe of 10% of your yearly earnings to the church?

Do you consider Onanism a mortal sin?

If you believe any of the above are incorrect then clearly you don't believe in the bible *at all* by your own logic.

When I say 'scholars' I mean 'theologians', not people who don't believe in the Bible at all.
The fact is Revelations is a big pile of crap dreamt up to scare people into believing in it - thats why people who DO believe in it have to make things up (like 'The Rapture' - which isn't even IN the bible, its just the only way they can get around some of the gaping holes in it)

And the reason Revelations is difficult to understand is because it was written by what would nowadays be termed 'a lunatic', not because it holds any profound truth. Offhand I can't remember the name of the author (who is a documented figure) but Revelations wasn't the only book he wrote, it was just the only one they wanted to keep in the work that eventually became the Bible.

There are literally hundreds and hundreds of books of Apocrypha that never amde it into the modern bible because they were
a) crazy
b) stupid
c) contradictory
d) all of the above.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 2:39 pm

Ok, on paper, I'm Roman Catholic.

But really, I mainly believe what I said before about Jesus being basically a really good role model. As for god, I believe that there is one, because some things in my life make me believe that there is one.

So really, I don't consider myself christian. I don't consider myself religious. I think of myself as a person who has learned from religious teachings, whether they be true or false, and lives his life how he thinks he should.

That's not really atheism, or religion. You could say that it's middle ground, but it's not that either. I'd say, for lack of better terms, that I'm a philosopher, because after all, philosophy is religion without dogma.

Hell, even science has as much if not more dogma than organized religion.

Lartrak · Post by **Lartrak** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 3:07 pm

Pointing out the bible as a reliable historical document is wrong. There are errors in it, from historical mistakes, to "doublets", to one instance of three very similar stories obviously based on the same egyptian myth.

so how can something as complex as the Earth just be formed or put here like it had nowhere else to go? think about how the Earth is just the right distance from the sun. any closer and life wouldn't be possible, we'd burn up.

Life evolved to the conditions of Earth. The Earth wasn't created with a specific lifetype in mind. You're confusing cause and effect in science. There could very well be a type of life that can exist on Mercury, somewhere in the universe.

Oh yeah, point out a single thing in revelations that happened. The guys name was John who wrote it wasn't it? That's also the book that says at Armaggeddon, only 144,000 pure male virgins will be saved.

hearld500 · Post by **hearld500** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 3:31 pm

There are errors in it, from historical mistakes, to "doublets", to one instance of three very similar stories obviously based on the same egyptian myth.

Really, instead of just saying things like

Pointing out the bible as a reliable historical document is wrong.

You dout other people, why dont you expect the same? SHOW THE PROOF!

Narcissus · Post by **Narcissus** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 3:51 pm

The thing people tend to forget is that the Bible is a book of stories. Granted, the people that took part in scribing it were ahead of their time (but the world was less populated then, so there were less people like that around), but that doesn't mean that it is a book to live your life by. Some people need religion, and I don't want to take that away from them, because without religion some people wouldn't be able to control themselves or do good things, and the world would be more chaotic.

I would never try to convince someone not to believe in God, because for a lot of people it's their way of life, take that away and they have nothing. If that's how you want to live your life fine, it doesn't hurt me a bit. What does bother me is when people don't have the same respect for my beliefs (which doesn't necessarily follow science or religion 100%). They are not allowed to think freely and acknowledge the fact that they may be wrong, and listen open mindedly to my own conclusions on life and why we are here. You can't even have an intelligent conversation with most of those people because they aren't allowed to think any other way, other than God is the almighty and don't doubt it. That's taking away your right as a human to think freely and have an open mind, and that's wrong.

I predict religion coming to a downfall sometime in the future (probably not in our lifetime though). Just imagine if we didn't have mass communication, and we weren't constantly taught how to think and feel by the media... Imagine a new world war, that wipes out almost all of humanity, and we must start all over. Now imagine someone finding a copy of the Matrix (book or movie) and reading/watching it. Not knowing that it was a major hollywood production, could it not be mistaken as a Bible of some sorts? What I'm getting at is, back in the day there was no sort of mass communication, no airplanes, no mail, no hotels, nothing of the sort. It wouldn't be hard for someone to trick people by the masses into thinking they are something that they are not (throw in a little cactus juice that causes halucinations, and now you've got people seeing stuff that isn't there and do some magic tricks and you're set). Not to mention the fact the stories of the Bible were passed down for centuries before they were ever scribed, and who knows how much the stories got fabricated before someone actually wrote them down.

I've lost friends and girlfriends because of my beliefs (or non-beliefs I should say) and I'm proud to say that I'm a thinker, and I come to my own conclusions on situations, and I'm also a good person, which is more than a lot of church goers can say about themselves....

ssj4goku128 · Post by **ssj4goku128** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:07 pm

Narc.

I agree with what you said about the parts of the Bible maybe being fabricated. You know why? Because they are. They were not transcribed on the spot and actually the Quran talks about this. How people made religions such as Christianity and Judaism to fit to their needs. For example, wine drinking was in fact prohibitted for Christians to drink. However, when the Christians wanted to spread the word to the Romans, that changed. Why? That's just my opinion as well. I am a spiritual man who does believe in God. I have studied many major religions (Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Dauism and Islam). May God forgive me if I made any mistakes in this writing.

krog · Post by **krog** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:08 pm

I believe that it is the HUMAN factor in religion that has turned so many people away from a life of faith. I believe in God and Jesus. I am Catholic but I have not gone to church regularly for many years now. I lived at the Neuman Center in college which is a Catholic student center and I believe there are more at other universities. My 2.5 years living in close proximity with a priest showed me something I hadn't figured out then. They are people too with faults and flaws.

Priests have been raised up to nearly the level of deity and people expect them to be all knowing.

But it just dosen't stop there. We know that "Saved" people can be the most judgemental of others while shrugging off their inequities.
Living in the south I have had to deal with misconceptions and insults from ignorant people. Most protestant religions in the area think of Catholics as cult following polygamists.

My point is that the churches themselves are partially to blame for people turning away from them.

But it goes both ways. There is a general HATRED of Christianity in the media these days. From the music we listen to to the news we watch the ideals and beliefs of christianity are under constant attack. I thoroughly believe a great number of "Athiests" are only that way because so much of the world says they should be. Peer presure to the ultimate level. You're not cool or inteligent if you believe in God.

I know that last statement is a huge insult to some but there are sheep on both sides and right now the general flow is against religion and faith.

MDPBlackout · Post by **MDPBlackout** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:12 pm

On belief o matic I got
1. Orthodox Quaker (100%)
2. Seventh Day Adventist (95%)
3. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (93%)
4. Eastern Orthodox (77%)
5. Roman Catholic (77%)
6. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (70%)

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