People who believe Obama is Muslim on the rise

[Jeeba Jabba]

^ this. I'm guessing this is directed at me since I'm the one who had a big explody rant in this thread, but if you actually bothered to read it you'd notice that (1) I consider Obama a significant letdown (he's not *terrible*, but he certainly is playing it far more cautious and conservative than what I and most of the people who supported him in the election were hoping for)

I agree. He definitely hasn't spent enough.


Oops.

[Ex-Cyber]

I agree. He definitely hasn't spent enough.


Oops.

That chart doesn't say much about spending, and even less about spending under Obama. Deficit increase can come from tax revenue reduction (including tax cuts, which were a big part of the stimulus bill) as well as spending, and a good chunk of that deficit spike is probably due to TARP.

[Eviltaco64X]

Also, Cyber appears to have taken up the mantle of trying to start a rational debate here. A good starting point would be to answer his question above (back before Jeeba's post).

That much I can do.

Please explain how Obama "centralized healthcare". I don't need a doctoral thesis, just a brief outline of the policies that accomplish the centralization of healthcare. Note: actual policies, please (see below for more on this point).

Well, isn't healthcare much more government-involved now? That bill covers far more people than medicare/medicaid did before, they pay for everything, and we pay them taxes in return.

You know the only people who won't get public healthcare are those who already have nice private healthcare. So I'm guessing more and more people will be dependent upon the government for their meds and doctor's appointments. This is how I define centralization.

Children will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday.
Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.
Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans.
Individuals affected by the Medicare Part D coverage gap will receive a $250 rebate, and 50% of the gap will be eliminated in 2011. The gap will be eliminated by 2020.
Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.
Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders when they get sick.
Insurers are required to reveal details about administrative and executive expenditures.
Insurers are required to implement an appeals process for coverage determination and claims on all new plans.
Indoor tanning services are subjected to a 10% service tax.
Enhanced methods of fraud detection are implemented.
Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.
Non-profit Blue Cross insurers are required to maintain a loss ratio (money spent on procedures over money incoming) of 85% or higher to take advantage of IRS tax benefits.
Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55–64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.
A new website installed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services will provide consumer insurance information for individuals and small businesses in all states.
A temporary credit program is established to encourage private investment in new therapies for disease treatment and prevention.

I grabbed this from Wikipedia, but these are the real policies of the healthcare bill. This is only one phase of it, but you begin to see new taxes surface and government healthcare expand. This then makes the private hospitals far more dependent on the government for money, thus making health care much more centralized than before.

[pixel]

Taco... As a right-wing libertarian, I learned years ago that you don't say too much on subjects like this. You're outgunned 10 to 1 every time on this board.

Yeah, but I like to share my opinions regardless of how many people I'm outgunned by. Especially when saying something as simple as "I dislike Obama" is like setting off an explosion.

You seriously need to take reading lessons if you think that's what I'm responding to.

PROTIP: I don't actually like Obama.

Well, I never said it applied to you.

I thought I explained it earlier that my beef is with the Tea Party and their leaders. I lose my cool when the debate veers into these weird tangents about birth certificates, anchor babies and gun control. My belief is that the best way for the government to work is a strong state, weaker national government. But I will not tolerate morons who garner media attention by being loud-mouthed pricks (Beck or Olbermann). Let's use our Congress for its purpose and settle these disputes. I think that's how the Constitution outlines it.

Edit: EvilTaco posted before me. Here's a response:

I grabbed this from Wikipedia, but these are the real policies of the healthcare bill. This is only one phase of it, but you begin to see new taxes surface and government healthcare expand. This then makes the private hospitals far more dependent on the government for money, thus making health care much more centralized than before.

From my understanding, for normal people with a full time job and private health insurance, there are some changes. Namely, I can't be dropped from my policy because I get cancer or some other disease. From what I read in your quoted material, the only way hospitals will get money from the government is through those without private insurance (e.g. Medicare). … Right?

[Ex-Cyber]

You know the only people who won't get public healthcare are those who already have nice private healthcare.

Private plans are still expected to be the bulk of health insurance, hence all the regulations on them. Any realistic prospect of a "public option" was scrapped pretty early in the negotiations (and of course single-payer was off the table from the start). The basic bargain that was struck was, as I understand it, that insurance companies would adhere to new regulations (particularly regarding rescission and pre-existing conditions) while the government would create a mandate to ensure that those regulations were not abused by customers (e.g. having no insurance until you get sick and then buying into a plan). There is a prohibition on enrolling new customers into pre-existing plans (because they are exempt from some of the regulations), but that does not apply to new plans created to comply with the new regulations.

Children will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday.
Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.
Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans.
Individuals affected by the Medicare Part D coverage gap will receive a $250 rebate, and 50% of the gap will be eliminated in 2011. The gap will be eliminated by 2020.
Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.
Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders when they get sick.
Insurers are required to reveal details about administrative and executive expenditures.
Insurers are required to implement an appeals process for coverage determination and claims on all new plans.
Indoor tanning services are subjected to a 10% service tax.
Enhanced methods of fraud detection are implemented.
Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.
Non-profit Blue Cross insurers are required to maintain a loss ratio (money spent on procedures over money incoming) of 85% or higher to take advantage of IRS tax benefits.
Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55–64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.
A new website installed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services will provide consumer insurance information for individuals and small businesses in all states.
A temporary credit program is established to encourage private investment in new therapies for disease treatment and prevention.

I grabbed this from Wikipedia, but these are the real policies of the healthcare bill. This is only one phase of it, but you begin to see new taxes surface and government healthcare expand. This then makes the private hospitals far more dependent on the government for money, thus making health care much more centralized than before.

I don't see how you get from point A to point B. Most of that is not "government healthcare" expanding (the main exception I see is the Medicare Part D provision, which could cost a lot of money but AFAICT doesn't cover any new people and is probably mostly covering people with expensive chronic illnesses). Yes, there are new regulations of private insurers, but they still aren't required to actually compete against a public option.

[DaMadFiddler]

Political narrative line has moved so far right that Reagan would be derided as "far-left" in modern campaign

[Eviltaco64X]

-Gave Amnesty to Illegal Immigrants
-Negotiated with Terrorists (Traded Arms for Hostages with Iran)
-Raised Taxes
-Negotiated with the "Evil Empire" without Pre-conditions
-Made a Decision to "Cut and Run" From Lebanon After Our Troops Were Attacked

This list is taking everything out of context. He actually:

-Passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act (and only gave amnesty to about 3 million that had been living in the country for at least 5 or so years).
-Backed the Contras.
-Cut taxes dramatically from the Carter administration.
-Negotiated with and ultimately crushed the Soviets by outspending them on weaponry.
-Deployed troops to Grenada two days after they withdrew from Lebanon.

[Ex-Cyber]

This list is taking everything out of context. He actually:

-Passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act (and only gave amnesty to about 3 million that had been living in the country for at least 5 or so years).
-Backed the Contras.
-Cut taxes dramatically from the Carter administration.
-Negotiated with and ultimately crushed the Soviets by outspending them on weaponry.
-Deployed troops to Grenada two days after they withdrew from Lebanon.

Even in context, I think a couple of these are still outside the current Republican mainstream:

Republicans under Reagan may have "only" given amnesty to 3 million under certain conditions, but today any kind of proposal for a "path to citizenship", even with restrictions (no criminal record, residency and employment requirements, etc.), is usually denounced by the Republican base.

Republicans cut taxes under Reagan, but also raised them later. The current mainstream Republican position is that the Bush tax cuts should be made permanent.

[Jeeba Jabba]

The myth that Reagan raised taxes is nothing but hearsay.

[bizzle]

delete

[Ex-Cyber]

The myth that Reagan raised taxes is nothing but hearsay.

Sure.

The Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981 was the biggest tax cut (and biggest tax bill) of the 1968-2006 period; the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 was the biggest tax increase of that period.

[Jeeba Jabba]

You really believe that?

[SuperMegatron]

Bush 1 when faced with the expenses of a recession and a war decided to take the heat and raise taxes. He was promptly thrown out of office for this, teaching all future presidents to give us what we want not what we need.

[Ex-Cyber]

Bush 1 when faced with the expenses of a recession and a war decided to take the heat and raise taxes. He was promptly thrown out of office for this, teaching all future presidents to give us what we want not what we need.

It's not just that people don't like tax hikes (which is a given), it's that he ran on an anti-tax-hike platform. Of course, he probably never would have even been nominated, let alone elected, had he expressly supported tax hikes in his campaign.

[Lartrak]

Ya know, this headline might be as well be "People who are stupid on the rise".

[pixel]

Ya know, this headline might be as well be "People who are stupid on the rise".

People that feel the President is a Muslim are, in fact, stupid. Those who feel the government should be more conservative are not, by default, stupid. However, there is no better adjective for the fringe players and armchair quarterbacks of our warped political environment.