Fightoon

Discussion of topics related to licensed games, software hacking/modification, prototypes, and development kits belongs here. Includes topics related to emulating the Dreamcast console on your computer or on another gaming console. Discussion of Reicast should go in the Official Reicast Forum.
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Post by |darc| » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:25 pm

RMD wrote:
Christuserloeser wrote:
BlackAura wrote:You seem to be under the impression that people can just sit down on a toilet and crap out a AAA blockbuster game with no effort (sorry about the imagery there...). It doesn't work that way - making games is bloody hard work. Having a ready supply of idiots ready to compare it to games that cost tens millions to develop and then complain when it doesn't manage to look better doesn't help.
You are being so stupid. Ikaruga is a 5 person team and it was steller.
Last hope is a 2 man team and its ace.
R4 and Age of the Beast are both by small teams of less than 5 to.
Then don't buy the game and shut the fuck up.
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Post by Grimlock » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:34 pm

So well put Darc.
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Post by mankrip » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:57 pm

patbier wrote:I know how the programer work is not rewarded as it would be. If I posted screenshots of Alice Dreams, with my test sprites, before Poche gave me his beautiful graphics, I'm sure I'll have a lot of criticicals.

That's always the problem when you post screenshots of a Work in progress.
You want to show your hard work to people, but they can't feel the work achieved.
The graphism is always the 1st criteria to estimate a game, but in the mind of the programer, it isn't.

First, the programer has to program the code of his game before being able to magnify it by adding more beautiful textures. And it is very hard to wait for this step before posting screenshots.
I agree 100% with you. If I had that in mind before I wouldn't have posted any screenshots yet.

Now I'm trying to decide if I should release a video of the gameplay (since the damage is already done) or not, since the gameplay isn't completely finished yet (even though it's playing well).
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Post by Grimlock » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:58 pm

Do it, I'd love to see it.
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Post by zman » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:55 pm

Bad publicity is better than no publicity. I would think a youtube showing would be great for the game. It gets more people interested and find out for themselves if its something they want or not.

Besides, I would bet half the complainers would enjoy the gameplay no matter how it works. It's not the graphics that count. It's how good the gameplay is and how fun that makes the game.
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Post by Juan » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:58 pm

The people who are most likely to buy it won't care about a few unfounded negative comments; you should release the videos for them.
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Post by leileilol » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:56 pm

The people attacking it because "other titles are better on the same system" have never understood the whole concept behind alpha/beta development stages
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Post by b0b » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:28 pm

WTF?! Great work Fragger!

cel-shading in quake1? really nice! it is faked or real cel-shading? i mean, are the outlines made by the renderer or it is the old trick with the models (models have the outlines "built-in")?

i know, the graphics and the whole game itself are in very early state. but this is really good so far!
(for this early development state...)

it would be great to see some gameplay-stuff!




i'm good at 3d-design. modeling and animating. if you could need some help in this, feel free to ask me :D
i'll try to help you out, if i can.

how many polys (max) are you using per player-model? how many animation-frames? old quake standards at about 250?

how far are you with the game planings? i mean, do you already exactly know how the game will look and plays like?
how many characters, stages, cutscenes? story (if any)?

style?
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Post by BlackAura » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:21 pm

RMD wrote:Team Senile is a group of about 4 people. Wtf did you pull 100 out of?
Commercial games developers. Duh.
RMD, in the bit I quoted before wrote:Plus when people mention homebrew its like we're supposed to have lowered expectations of quality.
Team Senile = Homebrew.

Other Dreamcast games to which you were comparing Fightoon = Commercial, and developed by larger teams with multi-million dollar budgets.
ou are being so stupid. Ikaruga is a 5 person team and it was steller.
Yes, and do you know how long it took that 5 person team to make it? That 5 person team would have been working on just that one game, full time (probably at least 8 hours a day), for several months. Let's call it six (which would mean it was developed very quickly).

So, that's 5 x 8 x 5 x 4 x 6 hours. 4800 hours, assuming six months, four weeks a month, five days a week, eight hours a day for five people.

Us normal people can't work full time on a hobby, can we? No. So it's simply not possible to spend 8 hours a day on writing a homebrew game. You'd be lucky to manage 10 hours a week, considering all that pesky real life that gets in the way, so for two people (which is how many people Fightoon has working on it), that puts the time to do something like Ikagura at 4 years.

Fightoon is not 4 years old. It's probably not even a couple of months old.

It's a simple matter of time, money, and resources. Why is this so difficult to grasp? Commercial games developers, even "small" ones, have far more of each than any homebrewer or independent developer could ever hope to have.

Besides, if you don't like it, don't buy it (or play it, or look at it, or whatever).
Fragger wrote:Now I'm trying to decide if I should release a video of the gameplay (since the damage is already done) or not, since the gameplay isn't completely finished yet (even though it's playing well).
Go for it! I'm sure that most of us would love to see it.
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Post by Grimlock » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:32 pm

BlackAura has own-smacked RMD...
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Post by goatdan » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:09 pm

RMD wrote:
Christuserloeser wrote:
RMD wrote:Last hope was a highly professional game though... It looks like a comerical game.
What's your point ? What does a commercial game look like ? and why does Fightoon not look like a commercial game ? but Last Hope ?
Because Fightoon doesnt match the quality of any other cell shaded game on DC. Where as Last Hope matches the quality of the orginal console it was made for, neo-geo. Last hope has the same quality graphics as any other SNK game. When a game matches the quality of other comerically released games in the same field then it is professional.
Hate to point out the obvious flaw in your logic here, but if Last Hope matches the quality of the Neo Geo, wouldn't you *have* to argue that it doesn't match the 2D power of other Dreamcast games that were released, such as Mars Matrix and GigaWing? And then your argument should be that Last Hope isn't worth the money they were asking because they didn't play it up to the power of the Dreamcast.

In which case, I would still say that you obviously don't get the fact that it is a stylistic choice. No one is going to bust out a Sega GT beater or a Metal Gear Solid killer app at this point in the game. The idea is to bring out new and exciting developments based around concept, style and gameplay. As I pointed out, I think that while you could argue that Fightoon doesn't look like Tekken 5, it isn't supposed to, so comparing it to that is completely stupid.
RMD wrote:R4 and Age of the Beast are both by small teams of less than 5 to.
Are you one of the beta testers for those games? Just wondering, as I find it odd that you're comparing the two when no one has played Fightoon or R4 yet. And quite frankly, it is comparing apples to oranges since they are two completely different game play styles, although I like them both for completely different reasons.
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Post by Christuserloeser » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:57 am

BlackAura wrote:
RMD wrote:Ikaruga is a 5 person team and it was steller.
Yes, and do you know how long it took that 5 person team to make it?
I tried to look it up, but I couldn't find any confirmation on the exact staff behind Ikaruga. What I know is that G-Rev was hired to do the 3D graphics engine for Ikaruga. G-Rev alone consists of a core staff of eight former Taito employees who previously did G-Darius and Ray Storm/Ray Force.

Another small Japanese developers working on Dreamcast/NAOMI games is Milestone with a core staff of nine former Compile employees, known for Aleste/Power Strike, Golvellius: Valley of Doom, Zanac and Puyo Puyo.

A notable exception is Triangle Service which is the smallest company developing for Dreamcast/NAOMI, their core staff consists of one former Konami employee doing the programming, everything else is done by external freelancers hired for specific tasks.

However, they all work with the official Katana SDK and do recieve support by Sega Japan who are publishing their games. Sega Japan is not exactly a small independent publisher like the GOAT Store.

It's a bit like comparing Fightoon to a new Dreamcast project by John Romero, based on the Quake III engine and published by Sega of America.

Source: http://www.edge-online.co.uk/archives/2 ... l_guns.php
BlackAura wrote:Fightoon is not 4 years old. It's probably not even a couple of months old.
Well, while Fightoon isn't a full-time project, it surely isn't a 'quick job' either: Fragger has been working on nxMakaqu (Fightoon's game engine) since 2003 and the announcement of Fightoon dates back to 2005 if I remember correctly. I am sure Fragger could give us some more insight on the history of the game.
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Post by mankrip » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:31 pm

I started working on the cel shading in late 2005. In January of 2006 I decided to use it on a fighting game to show at the school where I was studying, and at April-29-2006 Dan expressed interest in publishing it.

The outlines are coded in the renderer.
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Post by Sweater Fish » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:39 pm

You guys are silly. The game looks like a total blast and the graphical style only makes it look more fun, in my opinion.

When I see something like this
Image
I think, "Oh shit, I want to play that."

When I see something like this
Image
I think, "Wow, those are pretty graphics."

I guess it's up to each individual, what they want in a game, but personally, I want to have fun when I play video games, not be wowed by the graphics.


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Post by nymus » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:42 pm

^^^Wow! That's so true!! I never realised I thought the same.
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Post by |darc| » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:08 pm

Sweater Fish wrote:When I see something like this
Image
I think, "Wow, those are pretty graphics."
I think "who the hell really fights in those environments?"
It's thinking...
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Post by Eckostyle » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:15 pm

This thread wins
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Post by MapleBuster » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:50 am

I like the graphical style. It's bright and fun-looking. I don't particularly like the characters-a bit too stereotypical and a hint of racism, though I'm sure that's not intentional. They are rendered well with a cute look, it's lovely stuff in the main.

As far as the arguments as to whether it justifies a Dreamcast release due to it's simplistic style ? That's totally misguided in my opinion. Phil Collins and Rick Wakeman said the Sex Pistols were rubbish cos they only played three chords. Pahh ! Like Buddy Holly played hour-long crap synths riffs to justify his existence.

Whether Fightoon took two people or a hundred people to make, the only true indicators of it's worth should be "Is it a good game or a bad game, was it worth buying or downloading ?" Yes, graphics are important but they don't necessarily have to be rendered using 'realistic' textures to be nice. Someone mentioned Rez, I'll make the comparison between JSR and Tony Hawks. Both great games yet one uses 'realistically' rendered Skaters and enviroments, the other being all Manga inspired fantasy.

Weren't players originally dissapointed with Wind Waker cos Link didn't look real ! He's a videogame character ! He never was, and never will be real. *worries he's dropped a bombshell as big as telling peeps Santa doesn't exist :o *

Games have never had to look 'real', or even to be 'complicated' to be good. Did Monopoly or Snakes and Ladders look real ? Is Noughts and Crosses rubbish because of it's simplicity ? Space Invaders, Pong, Chu Chu Rocket ?

Did Piccasso paint 'realistic' figures ? Tracey Emin's bed was real as well ? Right !

Like the the sad fu***** who play a FPS and then threatens to kill everyone because they won/lost, there is a line which divides fantasy and reality which they seem to not notice. Or do they ? Scary.

I certainly don't think that people who don't make games are not entitled to an opinion though, that would be crass in the extreme. I'm also aware that the game choices players or programmers make are wholly subjective ! I just don't agree with them :)







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Post by mankrip » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:49 am

MapleBuster wrote:I don't particularly like the characters-a bit too stereotypical and a hint of racism, though I'm sure that's not intentional.
Yes, it was not intentional. I've seen these same impressions in other forums. The black character was going to be the main character, but now he will be cut from the game.

Thanks for the kind words.
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Post by Christuserloeser » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:17 am

Fragger wrote:
MapleBuster wrote:I don't particularly like the characters-a bit too stereotypical and a hint of racism, though I'm sure that's not intentional.
Yes, it was not intentional. I've seen these same impressions in other forums. The black character was going to be the main character, but now he will be cut from the game.
I thought he looked both cute + cool. Make him the main character like you intended and don't listen to people who are judging the game from a few little screenshots (Yes, I know that this includes me).

Edit: I can't believe how everyone acts as if white super hero characters with blond hair and blue eyes or macho Gangsta rapper characters would not be stereotypical...
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