Fightoon

Discussion of topics related to licensed games, software hacking/modification, prototypes, and development kits belongs here. Includes topics related to emulating the Dreamcast console on your computer or on another gaming console. Discussion of Reicast should go in the Official Reicast Forum.
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Post by BaldMonk » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:13 pm

I think it looks great.... Especially for Homebrew... It looks like it will be fun... I'm assuming there will be more characters though... And the title could use a little work :)
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Post by Skynet » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:56 am

Smiley wrote:I like the cel shaded look from previous games and also prefer 2d fighters over most of the modern 3d-ish ones, I just expected more from a dreamcast title. Excuse me for having an opinion that varies from others on this forum.
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Post by cube_b3 » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:14 pm

First of all they are not homebrew they are independent games. Goat Store stated in an interview these games spend years in development and a lot of other stuff.

However this game looks clearly a homebrew title, and not on par with any dreamcast fighting game from a graphical point of view, I am sorry If I am offending anyone who finds these graphics good. This is just my personal opinion.

I am unable to make something that looks as good at this and in that sense it's great however as a commercial indie release :? .
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Post by bizzle » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:05 pm

BILAL_XIA wrote:First of all they are not homebrew they are independent games. Goat Store stated in an interview these games spend years in development and a lot of other stuff.

However this game looks clearly a homebrew title, and not on par with any dreamcast fighting game from a graphical point of view, I am sorry If I am offending anyone who finds these graphics good. This is just my personal opinion.

I am unable to make something that looks as good at this and in that sense it's great however as a commercial indie release :? .
I think you should look up the definition of homebrew.
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Post by RMD » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:36 pm

BILAL_XIA wrote:First of all they are not homebrew they are independent games. Goat Store stated in an interview these games spend years in development and a lot of other stuff.

However this game looks clearly a homebrew title, and not on par with any dreamcast fighting game from a graphical point of view, I am sorry If I am offending anyone who finds these graphics good. This is just my personal opinion.

I am unable to make something that looks as good at this and in that sense it's great however as a commercial indie release :? .
This is excatly how I feel. Plus when people mention homebrew its like we're supposed to have lowered expectations of quality. I mean team senile produces games that look and play as good as comerical games and they're homebrew. Plus look how comerical Last Hope is. I don't see why anyone would demand anything less if they're still having to pay for it. Last Hope and Age of the beast are easly worth full price tags of $60.
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Post by Smiley » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:56 pm

RMD wrote:
BILAL_XIA wrote:First of all they are not homebrew they are independent games. Goat Store stated in an interview these games spend years in development and a lot of other stuff.

However this game looks clearly a homebrew title, and not on par with any dreamcast fighting game from a graphical point of view, I am sorry If I am offending anyone who finds these graphics good. This is just my personal opinion.

I am unable to make something that looks as good at this and in that sense it's great however as a commercial indie release :? .
This is excatly how I feel. Plus when people mention homebrew its like we're supposed to have lowered expectations of quality. I mean team senile produces games that look and play as good as comerical games and they're homebrew. Plus look how comerical Last Hope is. I don't see why anyone would demand anything less if they're still having to pay for it. Last Hope and Age of the beast are easly worth full price tags of $60.
That's not I how I feel about homebre at all, just to clarify. I was, quite frankly, thrilled with Alice Dreams, which minus some minor gripes, I would have gladly paid full price for back in the day.
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Post by mankrip » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:20 pm

Hi everyone,

Right now I just want to say that I respect all opinions about the game, no matter if they're negative or positive. I'm taking everything in consideration, and I'm open to hear about anything that you think that should be improved.

Also, it would be really helpful if you could elaborate a little more on your impressions about each aspect of the graphics.

Thanks for the feedback.
leileilol wrote:oh, and don't be anal. It looks like colormapness to me.
Looks like you didn't notice the outlines then. Sorry if I seemed harsh, it's just that it wasn't easy to code them.
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Post by RMD » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:43 pm

Ok, since we're actually taking suguestions.

I don't know if the backgrounds are rendered or not. However maybe pre rendered more detailed backgrounds could be used.

I always like the option of having widescreen support also.

Last suggestion, I think it would be nice to have drawn avtars instead of screen caps of the character models for there display pictures next to the life gauge.
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Post by goatdan » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:03 am

I'd like to toss in just a few comments here, sort of directed to everyone.

First off, yes -- we do not publish "homebrew" games. If you look up the "definition" of homebrew, you would find it to be something that someone made _at home._ I can't do that with any of the games which we have released, as they are all professionally pressed and packaged using machines that are worth more than the value of my house. I would also like to state that I also hate when people say that you should give games a pass because they are "independent" games or whatever. As I have said before, if you are paying for a game, I am going to do the best of my ability to make sure it measures up to anything else you can buy at the moment.

For our _independent_ games, you should have no lowered expectations of quality.

*However*, until we release it, it isn't an independent release. In case you all missed this from the original post:

"The game isn't very far in development yet, but we got some very good results already."

You can't criticize this game right now for *anything* beyond what you see in those screenshots... and, as I just pointed out, you have seen screenshots of what was said to be a work in progress. Not something completed, not something that is out and available for purchase, but a work in progress. This means it isn't done yet.

Now, what I find to be really odd is that I thought from when I first saw screenshots of this (a long time ago, and much lower quality screenies) that it is quite obvious that this game is going for a stylistic approach, and not crazy-super-great-graphics. What you can't see in the screenshots is that the animations and the expressions the characters can give are outstanding right now. How I see this is a goal to make a game with cartoon characters that are expressive and entertaining in it, and so far, I think Fragger has done an amazing job.

As for the what has been said about the backgrounds -- I don't get it. While I could understand someone saying that they wish the game would have more colors in the regular character models, take a look at a more simple cartoon -- or Toontown in Roger Rabbit -- and the goal of the architecture and background is to not distract from the characters themselves in any way. The cartoons are the goal of the shows.

Now, why in the world would a game like this, with a similar premise, have super nice backgrounds? Personally, I don't understand where people are getting that idea. To see what I'm talking about, some quick examples of scenery in cartoons:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... teria2.jpg
http://www.thefileroom.org/images/70_1_b.jpg
http://www.animationusa.com/picts/wbpict/bugsboid.jpg
http://www.thegremlin.com/PSTR/twistertrouble.JPG
http://cinema-review.com/images/dvd/Fantasia.jpg
http://www.mpimages.net/mp/compressed/p ... 4-254c.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/don_task2003/2 ... s_logo.jpg
http://pavlin.net/images/smalldog.jpg

In many cartoons like these, the easiest, most simple backgrounds are always what is drawn. My only thought is that either the concept of it being a cartoon fighting game wasn't understood by everyone. Otherwise, I just don't get it. If you watch the more simple, popular cartoons, this is what you've got.

Secondly, if anything, I think that the only potential drawback with the characters is that they are too complex for the rest of the game right now. Some of you might again think I'm crazy for saying this, but often cartoons are only three or four colors with little shading going on. Perhaps the reason that some of you are seeing these graphics as not being so great is because they simply aren't "simple" enough to be cartoons, but they aren't nice enough to be realistic either.

I know that no one has played this yet, and I know this is only a taste of things to come, but I would suggest that everyone start to think of this more as a stylistic fighter than a graphical powerhouse. That was what I know the goal was when the project was began, and that is how we are looking to promote it if and when it is released. Not as a Virtua Fighter 5 killer, not as a Tekken 5 killer, but as a unique, cel-shaded cartoon fighting game.

Feel free to criticize it however you want, but try to keep that in mind. It was a choice to try something unique instead of more of the same. Personally, I commend Fragger, and I have told him this in email but I'm sure he won't mind me putting it here -- because of the strong styling of this game, I think it is one of the most unique and interesting projects currently being worked on, and I definitely hope that it comes to completion. I personally don't like fighting games at all, but I've always wanted to grab a cartoon character and control them, and doing it in a fight sounds like a blast to me. From what I've played, this game will work with that childhood fantasy *perfectly*, and for that, I can't wait.
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Post by BlackAura » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:43 am

RMD wrote:Plus when people mention homebrew its like we're supposed to have lowered expectations of quality. I mean team senile produces games that look and play as good as comerical games and they're homebrew.
:roll:

First off, you can't compare something built by two guys in their spare time to something built by a team of 100 people over two years. The latter probably has somewhere in the region of 600 times as much work in it. One character probably took longer to produce than most homebrew games.

Second, the only game of Senile's you've played is Beats of Rage, which uses 100% ripped sprites. Age of the Beast uses original graphics, but it's taken them something like three years already, and they've still not finished it.

Third, if you can't do any better, shut the hell up. Don't start with the whole "but I can't do anything, so I should be able to whine and complain as much as I want" bullshit.

You seem to be under the impression that people can just sit down on a toilet and crap out a AAA blockbuster game with no effort (sorry about the imagery there...). It doesn't work that way - making games is bloody hard work. Having a ready supply of idiots ready to compare it to games that cost tens millions to develop and then complain when it doesn't manage to look better doesn't help.
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Post by Darksaviour69 » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:17 am

i just wanted to say great work fragger, i like the stylised look. Also there have been a few comments about fightoon posted at dcemu.co.uk
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Post by patbier » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:13 am

I'd like to say great work fragger too. I know how much work it demands to have this result, and i was really surprised when i saw your screenshots.

I know how the programer work is not rewarded as it would be. If I posted screenshots of Alice Dreams, with my test sprites, before Poche gave me his beautiful graphics, I'm sure I'll have a lot of criticicals.

That's always the problem when you post screenshots of a Work in progress.
You want to show your hard work to people, but they can't feel the work achieved.
The graphism is always the 1st criteria to estimate a game, but in the mind of the programer, it isn't.

First, the programer has to program the code of his game before being able to magnify it by adding more beautiful textures. And it is very hard to wait for this step before posting screenshots.


Otherwise, I really feel that your game will be a great success, and I can't wait to test it.
Keep up the good work, and I wish you will be able to complete it as you like.
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Post by zman » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:23 am

Personally I've never had a problem with the way this game looks. It looks just fine to me. Sort of like the Ready 2 Rumble series graphic style. Anyways, I'm glad that some of the game makers here put their 2 cents in. I really think the complainers do not understand the game making process and the difficulties involved. Anyways, I do commend all the people who put effort into making games in which I am able to play. Thank you...
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Post by RMD » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:55 am

BlackAura wrote:
RMD wrote:Plus when people mention homebrew its like we're supposed to have lowered expectations of quality. I mean team senile produces games that look and play as good as comerical games and they're homebrew.
:roll:

First off, you can't compare something built by two guys in their spare time to something built by a team of 100 people over two years. The latter probably has somewhere in the region of 600 times as much work in it. One character probably took longer to produce than most homebrew games.

Second, the only game of Senile's you've played is Beats of Rage, which uses 100% ripped sprites. Age of the Beast uses original graphics, but it's taken them something like three years already, and they've still not finished it.

Third, if you can't do any better, shut the hell up. Don't start with the whole "but I can't do anything, so I should be able to whine and complain as much as I want" bullshit.

You seem to be under the impression that people can just sit down on a toilet and crap out a AAA blockbuster game with no effort (sorry about the imagery there...). It doesn't work that way - making games is bloody hard work. Having a ready supply of idiots ready to compare it to games that cost tens millions to develop and then complain when it doesn't manage to look better doesn't help.
Team Senile is a group of about 4 people. Wtf did you pull 100 out of?
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Post by Christuserloeser » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:48 am

Fragger wrote:Right now I just want to say that I respect all opinions about the game, no matter if they're negative or positive. I'm taking everything in consideration, and I'm open to hear about anything that you think that should be improved.

Also, it would be really helpful if you could elaborate a little more on your impressions about each aspect of the graphics.
While I think that this is a kind offer, I also got the impression that all those people who spend their time comparing mainstream videogames with homebrew/independent productions never will be happy with games like Fightoon, even if you implement a billion changes. I've read hundreds of posts from people who don't like homebrew because they "expect more from a Dreamcast" - while at the same time I am convinced that even a game like Shenmue does not scratch the Dreamcast's limits or possibilities. So, I agree with goatdan and BlackAura, this is about art and not about polygon count. Asking for pre-rendered backgrounds in a cel-shaded cartoon fighter is like asking for more textures in Rez or more realism in Mario. If people aren't happy with the way Fightoon looks or plays, they could still go and buy a game for their PS360.

The best thing you could do is to just concentrate on the game without hearing anyone's opinions. The Last Hope team did do that and it worked. They made a game they liked and that's exactly why there is potential others may like it too. Their limitation was the NeoGeo hardware and yours is the Quake I engine.
Last edited by Christuserloeser on Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by RMD » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:52 am

Christuserloeser wrote:
Fragger wrote:Right now I just want to say that I respect all opinions about the game, no matter if they're negative or positive. I'm taking everything in consideration, and I'm open to hear about anything that you think that should be improved.

Also, it would be really helpful if you could elaborate a little more on your impressions about each aspect of the graphics.
While I think that this is a kind offer, I also got the impression that all those people who spend their time comparing mainstream videogames with homebrew/independent productions never will be happy with games like Fightoon, even if you implement a billion changes. I've read hundreds of posts from people who don't like homebrew because they "expect more from a Dreamcast" - at the same time I am convinced that even a game like Shenmue does not scratch the Dreamcast's limits or possibilities. So, I agree with goatdan and BlackAura, this is about art and not about polygon count. Asking for pre-rendered backgrounds in a cel-shaded cartoon fighter is like asking for more textures in Rez or more realism in Mario.

The best thing you could do is to just concentrate on the game without hearing anyone's opinions. The Last Hope team did do that and it worked. They made a game they liked and that's exactly why there is potential others may like it too. Their limitation was the NeoGeo hardware and yours is the Quake I engine.
Last hope was a highly professional game though... It looks like a comerical game. Why dont people like you get that point? Last Hope is worth $60. R4 from Senile team will be worth $60. If any other non comerical companies would like to stepup and challegene that quality then they too should charge $60 for there games.
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Post by Christuserloeser » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:58 am

RMD wrote:Last hope was a highly professional game though... It looks like a comerical game.
What's your point ? What does a commercial game look like ? and why does Fightoon not look like a commercial game ? but Last Hope ?
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Post by RMD » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:06 pm

Christuserloeser wrote:
RMD wrote:Last hope was a highly professional game though... It looks like a comerical game.
What's your point ? What does a commercial game look like ? and why does Fightoon not look like a commercial game ? but Last Hope ?
Because Fightoon doesnt match the quality of any other cell shaded game on DC. Where as Last Hope matches the quality of the orginal console it was made for, neo-geo. Last hope has the same quality graphics as any other SNK game. When a game matches the quality of other comerically released games in the same field then it is professional.
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Post by Christuserloeser » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:08 pm

BlackAura wrote:You seem to be under the impression that people can just sit down on a toilet and crap out a AAA blockbuster game with no effort (sorry about the imagery there...). It doesn't work that way - making games is bloody hard work. Having a ready supply of idiots ready to compare it to games that cost tens millions to develop and then complain when it doesn't manage to look better doesn't help.
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Post by RMD » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:15 pm

Christuserloeser wrote:
BlackAura wrote:You seem to be under the impression that people can just sit down on a toilet and crap out a AAA blockbuster game with no effort (sorry about the imagery there...). It doesn't work that way - making games is bloody hard work. Having a ready supply of idiots ready to compare it to games that cost tens millions to develop and then complain when it doesn't manage to look better doesn't help.
You are being so stupid. Ikaruga is a 5 person team and it was steller.
Last hope is a 2 man team and its ace.
R4 and Age of the Beast are both by small teams of less than 5 to.
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