Discussion of topics related to licensed games, software hacking/modification, prototypes, and development kits belongs here. Includes topics related to emulating the Dreamcast console on your computer or on another gaming console. Discussion of Reicast should go in the Official Reicast Forum.
You dont have to be so blunt and say I'm wrong or what I've seen is completely wierd. My tv is just fine, and vga even better but still shows on both. Its as if theirs frames from bottom to top, and as each frame goes up, image quality reduces. I know its apparent in all games. Crazy taxi, skies of arcadia, quake 3. Maybe the word isn't blurry, but the image isn't as sharp as on the bottom half of the screen as on the top.
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Ok, after a quick search, I found exactly what I meant. I've searched previously these forums and have found nobody mention this before. Tom's hardware guide, which I dont really like that much, but the image there will show you exactly what I mean about the "frames."
I don't think I've noticed this in other games on ps2. People go on how image quality can be superior on dc but what I've seen really isn't so unless you can prove otherwise. If I had a capture card, I would take the screen shots myself and show exactly what I mean. Look at the next link which compares Quake 3
If we go by the article, its trilinear filtering that I've noticed that the DC does, but still noticeable. I would assume its a developer specific option which filtering they choose and not done automatically by the hardware.
The simplest of these filtering methods is bilinear filtering. In a bilinear filtered image, there is a certain distance at which textures change abruptly from detailed to blurry. This distance can easily be seen as a distinct line across the ground texture (or a square if enclosed in a tight virtual "hallway") and is an obvious detraction to the image quality. Trilinear filtering specifies three regions allowing the central one set at mid-distance to blend the two other ranges of texture quality together, though lines are still visible) separating the three filtering sections) to astute observers.
Maybe I'm just used to the anistrophic filtering of a pc but I really think that the filtering on the DC takes away from image quality in many instances and if the lack of higher quality is not possible on the DC, well then, that's just another weakness of the DC.
I think i'm starting to understand what you mean, the issue is mipmapping and the distance and way of blending the different textures. This is especially obvious in SA1. If you notice the blurriness it's because the smaller mipmap textures are very low rez (example: 256X256->128X128->64X64... which is too small)
I get your point, but please have respect and dont come with statements about PS2's image quality, especially the texture quality.
Its obvious that a 7 year old console can't compare to todays PCs, man a video card from 6 months ago is considered old (for example lack of PS2.0 and VS2.0).
So statements like this
...higher quality is not possible on the DC, well then, that's just another weakness of the DC
are not nice, and to some point ridiculous.
If you dont like the rendering of the DC, why you register on the forum to bitch about it?? just ignore the DC all together and live happy with your PS2.
sorry if i sound pissed, its because i am!
Last edited by Segata Sanshiro on Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not bitching because if I were, it wouldnt prove anything. I just think the filtering issue has been an overlooked thing on these forums because it affects all games, as you've said yourself about SA1
I mentined SA1, because there the mipmapping/trilinear filtering is obvious, then again SA1 was made before the DC was even out. In SA2 its not nearly as aparent, and HeadHunter, TXR2... and many other latter DC games. Presenting this as a hardware/rendering weakness of the Dramcast is ridiculous, these games were made this way because of the development technology at the time (the SA1 engine).
Last edited by Segata Sanshiro on Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
@Kako| 6 years ago when this console came out, things like this were not a consideration and the Dreamcast was considered incredibly powerful for it's time. It's not as if the console can be upgraded as a PC would, so I don't see the point in complaining about something that was considered cutting edge 6 years ago when there is no way to change it now.
Kako - You appear to be complaining about mip-mapping. Mip-mapping is a technique where multiple copies of a texture at different sizes are used as the texture is drawn further into the distance. It speeds things up slightly, and also improves image quality in most cases, because it prevents the rather severe aliasing occurs otherwise.
You can disable mip-mapping of course. That eliminated the banding effect. However, you get that rather nasty looking texture aliasing effect, where textures basically degenerate into random looking patterns of coloured pixels. Personally, I prefer mip-mapping.
Mip-mapping is usually fine, but you do tend to have a sort of banding effect, where the transition from one mip-map level to another can be seen. If it's really noticeable (as it is in SA1) it means that the developers have done something slightly wrong. It should be far enough into the distance that you won't really notice it, although that depends on the game. Quake's mip mapping becomes apparent a lot closer than SA1, but you don't notice it because you just aren't looking that far into the distance. In SA1, you're usually not looking at the foreground. Same with Crazy Taxi, another game you complained about this in. They both have the absolute worst case scenario for mip-mapping - a flat floor / wall that stretches off way into the distance using a single texture, with nothing to break it up. The solutions are either to disable mip-mapping (producing aliasing effects), move the mip-map transition distance back (producing aliasing effects, although not as badly), rework the level (not really an option in the case of SA1 or Crazy Taxi), or enable trilinear filtering, at least on the most obviously affected areas of the scene.
Trilinear filtering basically blends mip-maps together, so you can't see the transition between mip levels. It's slower than bilinear filtering (which doesn't blend mip-maps together), but it reduces the banding effect. So it provides much better image quality when it's in use. Textures still become slightly blurry as they go into the background, but that can't really be helped. Obviously, you don't need to apply it to the entire scene - just the bits where you'd notice the mip-map banding. Later Dreamcast games do that. Look at SA2, for example. The Dreamcast's video hardware is more than capable of doing this. But most earlier games weren't efficient enough to allow them to enable it without loosing speed. SA1 had enough framerate problems anyway without enabling trilinear filtering.
The difference with PS2 games is that most of them either have trilinear filtering enabled across the scene, or at least on the parts of the scene where it would be noticeable, or they just don't use mip-mapping (limited texture memory). The PS2's graphics hardware does have slightly higher fillrate, so enabling trilinear filtering doesn't slow things down quite so much. Of course, the PS2's graphics hardware isn't very efficient (it suffers from massive overdraw, while the PVR2DC almost eliminates it), so it needs the higher fillrate to produce results comparable to the Dreamcast.
Anisotropic filtering is not supported by the Dreamcast video hardware, nor is it supported by the PS2's graphics hardware. It is supported by the Gamecube and Xbox video hardware though, along with any PC video card newer than a GeForce 3 (I forget when ATI introduced anisotropic filtering, but it was around the same time). It's an improved minification filter, which pretty much eliminates the need for mip-mapping, and produces far higher image quality, although it is far slower than trilinear filtering with mip-mapping. It's not at all relevant here, because neither the PS2 nor DC can do it.
Basically, you're complaining about first-generation DC games, comparing those to brand new PS2 games, and declaring that the DC must be inferior. Bull. The DC's graphics hardware is far more capable than the PS2's (more efficient, more special effects, far better image quality when used correctly), although it has slightly lower raw fillrate than the PS2, while the PS2's CPU is faster (and thus can process more geometry) than the DC's. Most of the special effects your typical PS2 games does are performed by the CPU rather than the graphics hardware, including fake anti-aliasing and deflicker filters, which the Dreamcast does in hardware.
If you want a slightly fairer comparison, take a look at Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast, and compare that with Soul Calibur 2 on the PS2. Despite being make years later (and having a higher polygon count), SC2 on the PS2 looks no better than SC on the DC. It's crippled by the standard PS2 image quality problems (no real anti-aliasing or deflicker filters make the image took terrible, while the DC, GC and Xbox all have anti-aliasing and hardware deflicker filters), lower texture resolution, and has severe framerate problems. The GC and Xbox versions manage to look nicer than Soul Calibur by quite a bit, while keeping the fast framerate and high image quality.
Yup.. I own both the PS2 and the Cube version of SCII and the original DC version is on par with current-gen games. Really... So i think if the Dreamcast had developer support untill now, we would have seen more advanced games ofcourse, in terms of graphics.
Some of my friends saw me playing Headhunter last week; they even told me that the graphics of GTA 3/Vice City weren't much better than Headhunter which is released in 2001.
Yeah I know what Kako means, and those mipmapping 'problems' are also visible a lot in Skies of Arcadia. That's about the only game where it bothered me. But once I am really in the game, I won't notice it anymore.
While we are on this topic: What way does Shenmue handle the graphics in the distance? I can't see any artifacts of mipmapping in a way SOA has them. While my feeling tells me that in the distance something 'is wrong' because it seems a bit twitchy or something. I really don't know the correct terms so I hope someone will know what I mean.
You feel at ease as you flock with the masses,
What do you see with your heads in their asses?
Keep on railing at what I believe,
Call me insane and I am proud to be.
Mipmapping is independent to the different surfaces and can be tweaked accordingly, for example in MSR there is almost no mipmapping and its very noticeable in the distance... the buildings (especially in japan) feature a horrible moire effect, but on some textures there isn't a trace of moire. You notice the mipmapping in SOA and SA1, because the smaller textures used in the distance are too small/low quality (for example instead of using 512X512-->256X256-->128X128, early DC games and SOA use textures as small as 64X64... thats approximately 1/4 of the size of your avatar Cid).
It appears that in Shenmue there are less mipmapping levels, so there is a compromise of sorts between mipmapping and moire. And in Shenmue 2 at the beginning, the brick houses near Pigeon Park... doesn't even have mipmaps. Another game that suffers from moire is Airforce Delta, especially visible on the night level... on the PS2 there are many examples as well.
Segata Sanshiro wrote:Mipmapping is independent to the different surfaces and can be tweaked accordingly, for example in MSR there is almost no mipmapping and its very noticeable in the distance... the buildings (especially in japan) feature a horrible moire effect, but on some textures there isn't a trace of moire. You notice the mipmapping in SOA and SA1, because the smaller textures used in the distance are too small/low quality (for example instead of using 512X512-->256X256-->128X128, early DC games and SOA use textures as small as 64X64... thats approximately 1/4 of the size of your avatar Cid).
It appears that in Shenmue there are less mipmapping levels, so there is a compromise of sorts between mipmapping and moire. And in Shenmue 2 at the beginning, the brick houses near Pigeon Park... doesn't even have mipmaps. Another game that suffers from moire is Airforce Delta, especially visible on the night level... on the PS2 there are many examples as well.
Thanks, that explains a lot. And I remember seeing those artifacts in a lot of PS2 games, and at first I didn't like it at all. But when I look at Shenmue I don't mind it at all. I wouldn't want to have Shenmue done like Skies of Arcadia.
And doragasu, in Shenmue it's also visible yeah.... Most of the time it's easiest to notice by looking at floors, or walls, long things that (should) stay the same when going in the distance.
You feel at ease as you flock with the masses,
What do you see with your heads in their asses?
Keep on railing at what I believe,
Call me insane and I am proud to be.
The comment about "give a dog a bone" is quite disrespectful...anyways
BlackAura, thank you for your very informative post that shows I'm not the only one seeing this. I may have been a tad harsh on the wording, but like the rest of you, I am dissapointed and wish their was another or so generation of gaming for us.
I remember a while back there was something about a re-release of the hardware with improved specs. I don't know how this would have worked for the existing games or in extending the life of the system, but it sounded intriguing anyway.
Just found two screenshots from the game Cannon Spike which really looks good. Seems this game is a nice looker as well. Anyone who has some more detailed screens? Or perhaps someone can capture some (wish I could...).
Man Cannon Spike is a cool game, but those shots suck, they dont do the game any justice.
Yeah, I know. But they were to best I found. I could take some myself, but they would not be better, since my digital camera is not state-of-the-art...
Is someone know Bang Gunship Elite on Dreamcast ?
How interesting! I just played Starlancer and though "Well, its fun but the DC could do so much better gfx. I wonder what other space-shooters there are..." and after that I started my computer and saw those pics. Looks really neat!
