Sega is evil!

Discussion of topics related to licensed games, software hacking/modification, prototypes, and development kits belongs here. Includes topics related to emulating the Dreamcast console on your computer or on another gaming console. Discussion of Reicast should go in the Official Reicast Forum.
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Post by The Kron » Wed Sep 18, 2002 9:39 am

The laws within my country state backups of any type/kind are illegal, whether a part of that Nintendo faq is literally inaccurate is against the objective as a whole owning a rom/iso of an intellectual property that you do not own the sole rights to is illegal.
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Post by Adri_Magnon » Wed Sep 18, 2002 10:20 am

Hi,
mariobro wrote::o

Wow, very intelligent, logical, reply.

These controversial topics should be discussed in the open, leaving puritanism behind. It's the only way to really combat piracy. Otherwise, the piracy business will become something like the drug business. I'm serious. It's already an enormous "underground" economy that lives on selling other people's work at dirt-cheap prices. But just like drugs, nobody wants to talk about it.

And also, like drugs, there are "respectable" narcotics, like alcohol and tobacco. Those would be MP3 and CD-Rs, in the data business. Nobody seems to think that the commercial use of MP3s is illegal. So I guess the BSA has done a much better job than the RIAA.
I agree. If you read through Religion and Science by Bertrand Russell, The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan or even Common Sense by Thomas Paine, you can see that much of the misues of power is to keep people ignorant and unable to form there own deciscions. Examples are the Churc's attempts to keep the Bible in Latin so that they would retain the power, the book burning of the Nazi regime and even the how the Presidential Debates tend to exclude the other parties candidates. All are examples of where there is a limitation to knowledge being pursued. Words are the tools of the min, I forgot where I heard that though. If someone raised in the deep south uses the "N" word to refer to black people, he will use that word later on including the negative conontations that go with it. The odd thing is, his behavior can be reinforced or weakened by his parents and own thoughts.

It's just amazing how much knowledge is out there in the world that gets hidden by the use of threats or majority rules or taboos. Another thing is your mentions on "respectable drugs." That is so true. Marijuana is considered bad even though scientists and researchers are divided over it having any negative effects and all the while tobacco was able to suppress their opponenents through lies and propoganda, which lasted until the last decade.
mariobro wrote:And if you think warez are a big problem (which they are), you should go to Asia or Latin America. Here, there are people who THINK that the pirated games for sale in street markets are originals. Yes, they're that good. A 12 year-old couldn't tell the difference between a copy and an original. (silk screened CD label, cover art,etc.). You know why the N64 flopped in Latin America? People said: "Nintendo is crazy. The games are too expensive, while the PS games are very cheap" Those cheap games were pirate copies. The N64 is seen as a rich-kid's console, while the PS is almost as popular as the NES was in its heyday!

Sony will admit off the record that piracy helped the PS a LOT in the international market.

Who left the CD-R backdoor in the DC? Why? Who leaked information about its existence?

Could it be that company executives just say: "Don't worry about piracy losses in Latin America and Asia. We'll make up for them in the US, Japan and Europe. Anyway, their consoles will break from playing copies, and they'll have to get more".

I'll admit this is X-files territory. I'm just speculating.

But if you're serious about piracy, you'll act like Nintendo. But it will hurt your worldwide sales. A friend just bought a GameCube. And he was very disappointed when he looked around for pirate copies, and found out there weren't anywhere to be found. That's how widespread piracy is in some countries. IT WILL INFLUENCE PEOPLE'S CHOICE OF A CONSOLE.

So how does Ikaruga for 30 cents sound to you? WEEKS before official release. Just drive to your local street market, and it's yours. That's a pretty damn big temptation for a lot of people to pass up.

But as always, in any country, the hardcore gamer will insist on original games.

However, many American and European friends who come here, see the market stalls with pirated games and music, and buy as much as they can, for personal use, and to sell them when they go back home. Just last Sunday, a French friend bought EVERY PS2 game on display (27). The street merchant thought it was Christmas... he got them at 20 cents of a Dollar a pop... He also bought some other illegal stuff (which I mentioned earlier...) to sell in France. Go figure.

So, it's a shady topic, and a very complex one at that. Unless it's dealt with by those involved (consumers, manufacturers, institutions, governments), it won't go away.

I hope I don't get banned. I just wanted to offer a wider perpspective...
I don't think you'll get banned for this.

On the other stuff, I lookeed quickly and found some talk of Sony of Phillipines and then, on a seperate site i found this:

http://www.inq7.net/nwsbrk/2002/aug/05/nbk_6-1.htm

Which has an interesting paragraph on piracy figures:

"This [there is no specific group that monitors piracy of games] explains why, despite the increasing popularity of the games and the widespread availability of pirated titles, there are no specific figures to show how much of the piracy picture can be attributed to computer and videogames. There are no numbers to show just how popular the games are in this country."

One thing I see is that it is easier to let there be some nebulous fear and unknown laws to scare people, but that doens't help anyone in the long run. Another thing is that we are people and some of us are of legal age to drink and smoke and such, so we have the right to make are own decisions.

But what goes against that is time. It takes time to educated yourself and find the facts and ask questions. Not a lot of people want to do that. I spent hours looking for information on what the gubernatorial candiadates stood for. I did the same for the 2000 Presidential Elcetions. It was time consuming work but I felt it well worth it.

My mother is from Mexico. I've never been there but I am surprised that you can see market stalls with pirated software. It's odd that if it is such a problem here in the US, the companies don't try and get the Mexican government to put a stop to it. A few will placed cops and such would probably do wonders.

Thanks for the reply,

AdriMagnon
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Post by Adri_Magnon » Wed Sep 18, 2002 10:42 am

Hi,
The Kron wrote:The laws within my country state backups of any type/kind are illegal,
Well then I think that explains why we don't see eye-to-eye. Backups in America are a gray area. Sometimes legal and sometimes not. The thig about the laws is, the US Laws reighn over all, so a compnay has to get a change to them first. So "fair use" can mean a lot of things. This is also one reason I am so interested with the DC. The Digital Millenium Copyright Act makes the copying of a DVD or the copying of a DVD to a CD illegal. This is because the DVD has a copy-protection scheme. If the GD-ROM is covered by the DMCA, it could be illegal. What would make it not illegal is the fact that Sega used off the shelf-parts to make the GD-ROMs. But there are so much hype about this (copying legally owned software and music) still that new laws keep getting made and ammended. It's kind of like prohibition. The government bowed to the will of the people.
The Kron wrote: whether a part of that Nintendo faq is literally inaccurate is against the objective as a whole owning a rom/iso of an intellectual property that you do not own the sole rights to is illegal.
Well, first I think that the FAQ plays a big part. We can't pick and choose information to suit our needs. It makes no sense. The entire FAQ has to be accurate. Also, it always has to be taken within the context it was meant.

A simple example is the biblical quote "money is the root of all evil." That is false. The actual quotye is " The love of money is the root of all evil." Meaning that loving money more than life is one of the paths that leads to biblical sin and evil. And money can only be used to buy material things, so in a sense the quote says "The love of material good, is the root of all evil." Now, without knowing this I can be mislead by a boss. Lets say I ask for a raise. He quotes "Money is the root of all evil." Feeling selfish I withdraw my request.

The statements have to be within context and can't just be applied to things they weren't meant for.

Second, I do not claim that that owning a ROM or ISO gives someone sole rights. However, under the US Law, it seems that I may make a backup of my software, CDs and ANYTHING that I legally own or purchased. If I buy a book I can copy the book in it's entirety. It is legal. However, if I then sell or even give away the copies I made, it is illegal. But as I said earlier, there is a gray area that each sides take so I think it should be on a case by case basis. So far I got the go ahead from Sega Customer service rep to backup all my legally owned games as long as they are for home use. I asked about the fact that the games must be modified by having the music downsampled. He said "yes." I asked him to verify and whoever he asked when I was on hold said "yes" too. But the press deopartment said "no."

It boils down to this. The laws of the counrty you live in dictate what you can and can't do. IF Sega said that worldwide you can copy the games like crazy, you would still not be able to because of the laws of the UK. However, others could, if there laws allowed it.

This is seen in the inside cover of the game books that says "unatuthorized copying not allowed." I am authroized by the US Government to make a archival copy. Those in the parts of the world may not be so entitled. However, the Napster thing and such has lead to this being gray and hard to find the facts.

My stance is that warez is illegal. It is so just by definition. Backups are legal. They, too, are so by definiton. But this only applies to my country and state. My research has lead me to believe that backing up a DC game in the US is legal. I contacted Sega and am still awaiting there reply. When I recieve it, whether it agrees with me or not, I will post it here on the forum.

Thanks for the feedback,

AdriMagnon
".. censoring knowledge, telling people what they must think and what ideas are impermissible, which lines of evidence may not be pursued, is the aperture to thought police, foolish decision-making, and long-term decline."
- Carl Sagan
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Post by Great One » Wed Sep 18, 2002 5:19 pm

ARG you broke my brain with your long intelligent posts!!!!!!!
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Post by mariobro » Wed Sep 18, 2002 6:10 pm

My mother is from Mexico. I've never been there but I am surprised that you can see market stalls with pirated software. It's odd that if it is such a problem here in the US, the companies don't try and get the Mexican government to put a stop to it. A few will placed cops and such would probably do wonders.


Yeah, I'll try to take some pictures. I'm figuring out how to do it, because if you don't have their permission to take photos, you might get your ass kicked, or worse... It's a mafia... with ties to the Yakuza and Russian and Hong Kong and Taiwan crime syndicates.

Remember Shenmue? Lan-Di, and Master Chen, and their shady business in the Yokozuka harbor? It's that kind of people.
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Post by Veggita2099 » Thu Sep 19, 2002 2:42 am

The Kron wrote:
dude322mg wrote:Yea, but I treat all my systems with great care and my SNES still works great but my dreamcast brakes within 3 years? I think thats fu cked up and my Genesis also broke! Even though I bought another one it still got me mad. BTW I got my new Genesis for just 5 dollars!
Due to the fact that you have been playing backups on it has been a factor on the way your DC's motor and laser are now acting hence not being able play any games anymore, dont blame Sega for the problems on your DC that you have caused!.

I have had my Japanese Launch DC since December 1998 and it is still going as if it were brand new (not a single fault).

If you want to look at badly produced consoles go look at the first model Playstation and the Playstation 2 I dont know a single person that hasnt had a laser problem with them. I myself have had 3 Playstations (one after another having the jumpy FMV syndrome then suddenly deciding not to load a single game) and my Japanese PS2 has started showing problems over the last few months.
I remember Babbages when the ps2 first came out required people to buy the Extended Warrenty with there ps2's cause they had so many people bringing them back. It has been a fact that Sony consoles have not been made well.

I have to say though my ps1 and ps2 still works fine. My ps1 I purchased in 1997 USED at a flea market. In 1999 I got the Game Enhancer which supposedly wears the system out faster. To this day it works fine. I bought my ps2 NEW December 2001 and it has worked fine since. I have Probably put around 200 or more hours on it. 60 of them came from FF 10.
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Post by toastman » Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:58 am

Technically if Sega said, "You can all copy are games without fear of retribution." Then we could copy to our heart's content. You see Sega holds the copyright, or the right to make and allow copies, to all of the games they publish (Not develop, developers usually waive their copyrights when getting published, hence why FFTactics took so long to get rereleased. Sony, not Square holds the copyright. And in some cases it may be a joint effort).
So if Sega allowed us, then we could do it legally and without fear of retribution. And copyright is civil law, not criminal so I use the term "legal" loosely.
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Post by -Johnick- » Thu Sep 19, 2002 6:23 pm

Veggita2099 wrote:It has been a fact that Sony consoles have not been made well.
The lasers for the v1(Jap Launch model) and v3(Pal/US launch model) Ps2's were crap.The v4's have slightly better lasers but still no great shakes.The v5 & 6 however have rock solid lasers.Apart from the lasers in the older models i mentioned the Ps2 is a very well built machine.

The Psx always had crap lasers plus the power supply was internal so it was prone to over heating.The Psone however has an external power supply and a great laser.Why the hell sony doesnt just put decent lasers in there machines to begin with is beyond me :/,its like there trying to see how much they can get away with.Look at the Saturn,how many peeps here still have a working saturn?.Now that machine was built to last.
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Post by CupNoodle » Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:01 pm

-Johnick- wrote:
Veggita2099 wrote:It has been a fact that Sony consoles have not been made well.
The lasers for the v1(Jap Launch model) and v3(Pal/US launch model) Ps2's were crap.The v4's have slightly better lasers but still no great shakes.The v5 & 6 however have rock solid lasers.Apart from the lasers in the older models i mentioned the Ps2 is a very well built machine.

The Psx always had crap lasers plus the power supply was internal so it was prone to over heating.The Psone however has an external power supply and a great laser.Why the hell sony doesnt just put decent lasers in there machines to begin with is beyond me :/,its like there trying to see how much they can get away with.Look at the Saturn,how many peeps here still have a working saturn?.Now that machine was built to last.
Speaking of Saturn, i just modded mine with a toggle switch a couple days ago. A great great system indeed.
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Post by -Johnick- » Fri Sep 20, 2002 7:16 pm

Jabba2442 wrote:Speaking of Saturn, i just modded mine with a toggle switch a couple days ago. A great great system indeed.
Indeed,im gonna order a modded Jap saturn with a 50/60hz switch,action replay(for imports)with 4 megs of ram for the games that need it,and a modchip for backups.The games are so cheap on ebay its a joke,you can build a great saturn collection there,with the exception of Panzer Dragon saga and Radiant Silvergun.When it comes to those 2 games i will have to use other methods.Even if i did pay legit for those 2 games its not like sega/treasure are gonna get any money from it,just the guy who sold me it.
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Post by Lartrak » Sat Sep 21, 2002 2:55 am

About backups/warez: Some warez load faster then the originals. And since others just load the "entire game" into memory and have the CD audio ripped (so the motor just stops, ala NesterDC) some pirates definetly wear the DC out less - that's the exception of course, rather then the rule... Mr Driller is an example of that. Others are poorly ordered and badly made, and thusly do indeed wear out the DC faster. It also depends on the media, some CD-Rs the DC has more trouble with then others.

Just sayin..
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