AOTB May Not Come to Dreamcast

Discussion of topics related to licensed games, software hacking/modification, prototypes, and development kits belongs here. Includes topics related to emulating the Dreamcast console on your computer or on another gaming console. Discussion of Reicast should go in the Official Reicast Forum.
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cube_b3
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AOTB May Not Come to Dreamcast

Post by cube_b3 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:02 pm

Guest wrote:
Roel wrote:It's true, we're not sure. The number of active Dreamcast users keeps declining. Will there be any left by the time the project is done? Who knows?

Also, developing a Dreamcast game is not an economically sound decision. I don't know if we'll even be able to afford another Dreamcast release. Especially since some people seem to think RRRR DX's ridiculously low price point is too high already... :\
Roel wrote:It's true, we're not sure. The number of active Dreamcast users keeps declining. Will there be any left by the time the project is done? Who knows?
What you talking about?
What numbers declined?

Once SoJ officially abandoned DC in 2007, it was over. I don't think was possible for the user base to decline anymore as all three next generation consoles were out and those who were still holding the DC such as myself as their go to 6th Generation console moved on to the 7th Generation.

Nonetheless RedSpotGames felt that the DC Market wasn't dead and released Last Hope, which they believe made an indie Sales Record with 5500 Units (the last 500 were for the limited edition), Despite poor marketing (as stated by Rene in an interview with RacketBoy). Their next game however bombed but they acknowledged that it was due to the genre and furthermore the game looks and sounds like it should be on the Master System (please disregard my personal opinion, but the sound and graphics are really not for me).

In 2009, HuCast published Dux while units aren't known it sold out pretty fast and a reprint/update is in the works.
The same year NG:Dev.Team, after parting ways with RSG released Pink Bullets which sold in a month or 2 (although they were only a 1000 units).

Also only a few months after R4 came out, the regular edition sold out breaking Last Hope's record, so with that logic the market would be increasing?

* I will discuss the Special Edition in a bit

Also, developing a Dreamcast game is not an economically sound decision. I don't know if we'll even be able to afford another Dreamcast release.
Why is that? You currently hold an RSG sales record.
Especially since some people seem to think RRRR DX's ridiculously low price point is too high already...
I do think it is high, especially taking into account the fact that the game was being sold for half the price (that is what I remember, I may be wrong here).
Conventionally after games are released their prices go down, not the other way around.

The game I believe was selling for 15 Euro's and is currently selling for 30 Euro's in doing so... you are forcing a potential consumer to buy a game that other consumers bought at half the price. An average player is only interested in the game and not the stickers and sound tack included with the DX edition.

RSG/SenileTeam have made several critical executive decisions that hurt the game sales:
- Release an alternate edition with the same box art
- not releasing both editions at the same time
- remove a cheaper alternate for potential consumers; creating buyer inertia in the process

Max also mentioned in one of our discussions that you have certain clauses in your contract that inhibits RSG from bundling the game with other products. It was a long time ago so I don't remember the context in which he was referring to it cause it was bundled with W&W + Vibrator/Extension Cord.

I think it was when I asked why it hasn't been bundled with Dux or W&W.
Roel wrote:
dc wrote:i think you underpriced your game. you should consider charging more.
I agree!
That would be another executive disaster, man imagine if a big company did something like that we would all go and throw rotten eggs at them.
I don't want to act like an MBA cause I'm not, but I think you should pick up a book on business basics and read the chapter on Product Life Cycles/Pricing Strategies.

When games are released, they have a high price for it because as with most software it is only demand for a short time period and then sales sink, I believe this pricing approach is called Skimming.

Look at NG:Dev.Team and their business model it is fantastic:

- They release an expensive game and skim it
- Once the units sell out they release a remixed low priced edition for everybody else

It is working for them cause they announced 3 games for Dreamcast in DC-Emu's interview with them. One game coming out this year and 2 next year.
(the 2 games for next year doesn't include DUX as that is Hellwig's solo project and not NG:Dev.Team's project.)
First they cancel the mod-able version after leading so many modders hanging for years and now they are considering dumping the Dreamcast release altogether.

To think they started life as releasing free ware games, now it is all about economics.
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Re: AOTB May Not Come to Dreamcast

Post by Christluu » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:08 pm

really sad :cry:
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Re: AOTB May Not Come to Dreamcast

Post by cube_b3 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:54 am

cube_b3 wrote:
Roel wrote:
cube_b3 wrote:^ Above post was by me, somehow I logged out and now I can't edit out the grammatical mistakes.
I've assigned your post to your account. Go nuts.
Unfortunately, I still can't and now you've already read through it :(.

Grammar aside, your post seems (to me at least) coloured by a dose of Dreamcast enthusiasm, perhaps even fanboyism. Don't worry, I mean that in the most respectful way possible.

I appreciate you being respectful but it is most unfortunate that I sound like a fan boy, I wouldn't be here or any other dc site if I wasn't but I thought I could be objective.
I'll try harder this time :) (let me know how it goes)
But I'm sure that deep down, you know just as well as anyone else that the Dreamcast userbase isn't getting any bigger. Whatever "sales records" or other murky statistics may still be out there to help convince true believers like yourself of the contrary are all fine if they keep you happy, but they are hardly a solid foundation to base financially important decisions on.
I fully acknowledge it isn't getting bigger, it stopped getting bigger once the R7 production run ended all the way back in 2001.

My point was anyone who had Dreamcast 'as their primary system'; moved on 5 years ago, even a 'fanboy' such as myself.

I believe the demographic of Dreamcast users around today; are the ones who own the system and only take it out on special occasions or when a worthy game is released, it would be unlikely for them to sell it as it is unlikely for the system to bring ROI (return on investment) and anyone who has bought the system in the last 5 years (if not 9 years knows that) Dreamcast owners are more likely to sell the rare games, rather than the system.

To me saying that the Dreamcast user base is declining sounds like Jaguar, Neo-Geo, etc user base is declining. The consumers retro consoles share is mainly a 'constant' one, as commercially all systems were abandoned by their parent company years, if not decades ago.

Can you please outline a variable that you believe is facilitating the decline of DC user base?

The only one I can think of is emulation and downloadable classics for Virtual Consoles such as Wii, PS3, 360.

I don't think that is a real threat to the new games market, I haven't met anyone who has thrown out their NES, because you can play it on the Wii. If they had to, they would've done it decades ago, when the NES pc emulator came out.
Even if it is you are already entering that realm of downloadable games :V:.

Could it be the :dc: wasn't the financial market you were looking for?
ST only has a single game and it holds RSG sales record.
In your place, I would most likely have thought the same about the "critical executive decisions" you mentioned, however things are not as they seem. It was never a "decision" not to release both editions at the same time. They were supposed to be released at the same time, but the DX version appeared at a later time on account of a manufacturing issue. Alternative box art hasn't boosted the sales of the DX version at all, in fact the "same art" version continues to out-sell the alternative version to this day.
First impressions amigo, first impressions.
Had the DX version been announced with an Alternate Cover (AC) it would've made a stronger impression. If I remember correctly it was probably took more than a month for the AC to be revealed. It is conventional for a different edition to have an AC.
The cheaper alternative was not "removed", it simply sold out much quicker than the DX version on account of the difference in release dates, so again this is a result of the aforementioned manufacturing issue.
Do you think it sold out faster only because it was released earlier?
I believe it was the price that helped it sell out, and clearly a larger market for the standard market exists, however I doubt another pressing will be made until unless the DX units sell out and that does indicate the cheaper alternate has been removed.

Look the DX edition was made for people like me, and we won't even consider buying the Reg Edition, but you have to think like the consumers. Specifically the casual consumers, not enthusiasts like us, as we order both editions just because we can.
And I shouldn't even have to be saying this, but of course we're not really going to raise the price now!
Now others won't even suggest it to you anymore :D.
I had to make that post, people here were of the opinion the games price is to low, and should be increased.

They were not keeping the competition into account:
Do the readers here know that Irides a game released around the same time as R4 was sold for less than 10$ last month, and their limited edition which only had 144 units produced had it's price reduced by 10$ (although the discounts were made for Dreamcast's 11th anniversary and the offer has expired now).
I hope I've been able to explain to you that the "executive disasters" you're accusing us and rsg of, are nothing of the sort.
Accusing is such a harsh word.
It's bad luck - something we've had more than our fair share of during the entire course of this project - and sadly no book on business basics or any other subject could ever protect anyone from that.
That is so true, you probably hold the indie record of bad luck.
If anyone here does not know R4 started life as an entry for Lik-Sang's coding competition... and we all know what happened to them :(. I really miss that website.
Of course you might say that we/rsg could have averted some of the damage by delaying the release of the regular edition until both versions were ready, but obviously we planned for a release between the Dreamcast's 10th birthday and Christmas, which I still believe was a perfectly sound decision, even if circumstances weren't as favourable as expected.

I see your pickle, it was essential for you to meet the release date.

However, I will go back to my AC point, had it been shown from the get go, you could've capitalized on it via more preorders for DX.
________________________________

In conclusion, a different marketing strategy is required, if AOTB is intended for the Dreamcast.
My second conversation
Last edited by cube_b3 on Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AOTB May Not Come to Dreamcast

Post by DCDayDreamer » Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:13 am

I browsed through this a couple of times and can't quite follow who is saying what. At first it looked like a PM discussion between Roel and cube_b3 but there seems to be more than two people quoted. Is this from an email again?.
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Re: AOTB May Not Come to Dreamcast

Post by Quzar » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:45 am

The quote bracket structure wasn't copy-pasted correctly, so the second one doesn't make much sense.

cube_b3, perhaps if you simply put a quote around each part of back and forth conversation:
cube_b3 wrote:Question
someone else wrote:answer
this would be more readable.
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Re: AOTB May Not Come to Dreamcast

Post by DCDayDreamer » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:00 am

The quotes are from this Senile Team Forum Thread, now it makes sense :) .
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Re: AOTB May Not Come to Dreamcast

Post by Captain Dreamcast » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:21 am

Well, they're planning to make a trailer and start accepting preorders to see how many people are still interested in AotB for Dreamcast, right? There's still hope >_<

...I just wonder how Senile Team defines "commercially successful" and how many preorders they expect :?
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Re: AOTB May Not Come to Dreamcast

Post by Anthony817 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:14 pm

Interesting read thanks for sharing.
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