I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Quzar » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:38 pm

Nico0020 wrote:I use Open Office, but I also have Office2007 Installed via Crossover. The interface of 2007 is nice, but it still confuses me and I always revert back to OpenOffice. I am an English major, so all I use is the word application, and sometimes powerpoint. My only problem with openoffice is that I can not read comments that my professors tag to my papers, thus i open them in 2007.
They should show up fine in OOO. I remember the first two times or so I could barely tell, as they tend to appear as a thin yellow line between letters/words. After digging I found a setting to have them default exploded.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Ender » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:15 pm

losinggeneration wrote:
Ender wrote:And don't get me started on dependency hell and ALSA/OSS.
Personally, I haven't really had that problem in nearly 10 years now.
Ender wrote:People occasionally give me a hard time about using a Mac, saying that it's just because "art people use macs." Fact of the matter is I like that mac apps are self-contained and don't copy random files everywhere on my computer. I like that uninstalling is as easy as deleting (for the most part). I like that most things work without a fight, and I like that installation is mostly standardized and I don't need 8 versions of the same library installed on my system so that I can get a few older apps running. I could function with Windows, though I'd need to do a lot more system maintenance, but I just can't function in linux.
Well, most all distros have a pretty standard path hierarchy to which programs and libraries are installed. That said, PC-BSD (sure it's not Linux, but I couldn't think of a distro besides Gobo Linux that does anything similar) does basically what you're talking about with keeping packages self contained with all dependencies included.
Regarding the first, that's great. It could just be that I've had weird hardware (like a SPARC, for example), but I've only ever managed to get sound working 100% on any of my systems by doing a 30hr Gentoo install. It could very well be my own idiocy, but either way, sound really shouldn't be that hard. I've heard Ubuntu has done wonders that way, but since I need Photoshop, I haven't played with it in a few years.

Regarding the second, it doesn't surprise me since Mac OSX is effectively a shell built over top of FreeBSD. Don't get me wrong - in most cases the components are there. The issue (as I see it) is that you have a bunch of people all building components without a unified framework. Great for tinkerers, not so much for people who need apps and processes to work together seamlessly. I will say that *nix has moved forward substantially over the past decade and that's great. It just currently isn't as unified as Mac OS, and it isn't as well supported as Windows. If *nix wants to compete, it needs to do *something* better than everyone else, and tinkering is such a niche that I don't think it's worth marketing.

That said, *nix is doing well in the sciences, and so is Mac OS, largely because *nix is the most reliable system, but Mac OS is a user friendly system that's built on *nix. In many ways, Mac OS should be what Ubuntu is trying to be (IMO).
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Chilly Willy » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:45 pm

Maybe you're just unlucky - I've got seven different systems running Xubuntu 9.04 without issue, including my PS3. The only system I have that DOESN'T run 9.04 is an old laptop whose LCD is affected by a bug in recent versions of Xorg. It works fine with a version of Ubuntu that uses the older Xorg. All the Ubuntu flavors are far easier to use than Windows XP, and are more powerful, useful, and stable to boot. I don't see why people fuss, other than it's DIFFERENT from Windows. Different doesn't mean worse, it means different.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Ender » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:14 pm

Chilly Willy wrote:Maybe you're just unlucky - I've got seven different systems running Xubuntu 9.04 without issue, including my PS3. The only system I have that DOESN'T run 9.04 is an old laptop whose LCD is affected by a bug in recent versions of Xorg. It works fine with a version of Ubuntu that uses the older Xorg. All the Ubuntu flavors are far easier to use than Windows XP, and are more powerful, useful, and stable to boot. I don't see why people fuss, other than it's DIFFERENT from Windows. Different doesn't mean worse, it means different.
Don't get me wrong, I can get most things working. Sound has just been the bane of my existence. Sure, I've had issues with certain distros' app installers (linpus is still a piece of crap, but it's the Linux that 100% supports my netbook), but I'd say that if I didn't have Apple hardware (or couldn't get MacOS running on other hardware) AND I didn't need to use Photoshop, I'd likely be using some sort of Ubuntu. In fact, when I get around to it, I'll likely give Ubuntu a shot on my netbook, dual-booting with MacOS.

I'll tell you exactly why people fuss. It doesn't matter whether *nix is better than Windows or not. It's confusing. People have to use "'*nix" because there are a half dozen BSDs, some real Unix, and dozens of Linux flavours. Now, you could argue that everyone should just use Ubuntu anyway (if they're new to *nix) and that's awesome. How the hell do they figure that out? They've heard of this OS called Linux, period. You expect average Joe to figure out what Linux is and why they should care? But let's say they want Ubuntu. Do they want EduBuntu? Kubuntu? Ubuntu? These aren't the differences between Vista Home and Vista Ultimate. These are substantial shifts in how you would be using the computer. Let's say they just settle on Kubuntu. Let's say it installs without problems, and everything works out of the box 100% (unlikely, but let's just argue). The package manager isn't obvious, especially when people have been downloading new apps off the net for years. If they do go to a website that has a linux download, it's often source, or digging through a dozen or so package files trying to find "your" flavour. In short, everything about *nix is so drastically different from everything average people have been using for years that the learning curve is amazingly steep - especially when most comps come with Windows or MacOS pre-installed. Yes, once you have a working system and have learned how to get new apps (and have all the apps you want installed with the versions you want) *nix is great. That said, as has been mentioned before, *nix is only free if your time has no value.

MacOS is a nice compromise. It has the usability and support (mostly) that Windows has, but it runs on top of *nix. It's a central, brandable entity. And people are moving to it in droves.

If Ubuntu could cut out the issues I'm talking about above, they'd be a more reasonable option. As it is, average person needs to spend at least an hour trying to figure out what it is, what it could do for them, and which flavour they'd prefer using. We take it for granted that people know the difference between KDE/GNOME/XFCE, etc. They don't. So after they spend that hour, they spend another hour downloading, burning, possibly playing with a liveCD to see if they *actually* want it, installing the OS, and then learning how the packaging system works - likely after already having tried to update something like Firefox to the new version and wondering where their download link is.

In short people, in general, are lazy.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Chilly Willy » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:00 pm

All the major distros have Live CDs - just try a few and see which appeals most. It's easy, only taking some time to check each one out. I tried ZenWalk just the other day. Not good enough to make me switch from Xubuntu (which also has a Live CD), but it was nice to try.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Ender » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Chilly Willy wrote:All the major distros have Live CDs - just try a few and see which appeals most. It's easy, only taking some time to check each one out. I tried ZenWalk just the other day. Not good enough to make me switch from Xubuntu (which also has a Live CD), but it was nice to try.
I think you're missing my point. Why, exactly, would one bother to try a bunch of distros (burn all those discs, find all those distros, download all those distros) to see which they like when they could just using Windows/MacOS - Something they're already familiar with? You're only going to get people who a) are tinkerers, or b) are angry enough with Windows go go way out of their way to find something (anything!) else.

Not saying *nix is bad, or worse than Windows. You're asking why people fuss, and that's the answer plain and simple. It's not easy enough for people to care enough to learn a new system.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Chilly Willy » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:26 am

The are a number of reasons - one of which you mentioned: people angry at Windows. Those tend to be the majority of the people I converse with who are trying linux. Other people might want something newer/better than XP, but they don't want to pay MS hundreds of dollars for yet another version of Windows. Others may have friends or family who switched and want to try it to see what all the fuss is about. Whatever their reason, Live CDs are the way to go for trying out linux, and their availability is key to expanding linux.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Ender » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:28 pm

Chilly Willy wrote:The are a number of reasons - one of which you mentioned: people angry at Windows. Those tend to be the majority of the people I converse with who are trying linux. Other people might want something newer/better than XP, but they don't want to pay MS hundreds of dollars for yet another version of Windows. Others may have friends or family who switched and want to try it to see what all the fuss is about. Whatever their reason, Live CDs are the way to go for trying out linux, and their availability is key to expanding linux.
Sorry, I'm confused. You seem to be agreeing with me about why one would want to change, but still "don't see why people fuss, other than it's DIFFERENT from Windows". If you want to know why people fuss, read my above post - it's about why people would be justified in a) not wanting to change and b) realizing that it's way more effort than they want to go through.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Chilly Willy » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:48 pm

:grin:

I'm confused too... what were we talking about? :fweep:
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Ender » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:09 pm

Everything I wrote after your first post up there were a bunch of differently-worded replies to "I don't see why people fuss, other than it's DIFFERENT from Windows. Different doesn't mean worse, it means different."
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Code-Red » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:12 pm

Still using Linux, unfortunately, because I haven't built a new pc yet. I still hate it, if not more so. I can't use the webcam I just bought properly. I can't burn 360 backups using XBC because guess what? IT ISNT AVAILABLE FOR LINUX. It's the same fucking wall I've run into about 30 or more times now.

I'm so sick of settling for shittier programs, and I'm sick of having to read lots of forum posts about how to use them. Open the terminal this, type in that, blah blah, how am I expected to remember all the variables in the Terminal for every one of the programs I have?

Linux is not better than Windows, at all. I'm sorry, but I've been using it for several months now, and the only reasons I can come up with are these: - It's free, - It's less resource intensive then Windows. That's it...... Ubuntu has got a LONG way to go to be in anywhere near the same league as Windows as far as user friendliness.

Laziness has nothing to do with it, and an OS is all about convenience. If we all wanted to compile our programs still, we'd still be using old PDP machines with FORTRAN. If we wanted to continue using terminals, DOS would still be the leading OS. If we wanted to install libraries before actually being able to use a program...... oh wait. Anyone who actually enjoys/defends installing libraries seriously needs a brain enema.

I've been without Windows for about 5 months now, using Ubuntu and MacOSX Tiger, and it hurts. OSX isn't too bad, but I can't get past the whole "one button mouse" thing. Let me just say I'm going to enjoy every second of the Windows 7 install on my new computer.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Chilly Willy » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:37 pm

Code-Red wrote:Still using Linux, unfortunately, because I haven't built a new pc yet. I still hate it, if not more so. I can't use the webcam I just bought properly. I can't burn 360 backups using XBC because guess what? IT ISNT AVAILABLE FOR LINUX. It's the same fucking wall I've run into about 30 or more times now.

I'm so sick of settling for shittier programs, and I'm sick of having to read lots of forum posts about how to use them. Open the terminal this, type in that, blah blah, how am I expected to remember all the variables in the Terminal for every one of the programs I have?

Linux is not better than Windows, at all. I'm sorry, but I've been using it for several months now, and the only reasons I can come up with are these: - It's free, - It's less resource intensive then Windows. That's it...... Ubuntu has got a LONG way to go to be in anywhere near the same league as Windows as far as user friendliness.

Laziness has nothing to do with it, and an OS is all about convenience. If we all wanted to compile our programs still, we'd still be using old PDP machines with FORTRAN. If we wanted to continue using terminals, DOS would still be the leading OS. If we wanted to install libraries before actually being able to use a program...... oh wait. Anyone who actually enjoys/defends installing libraries seriously needs a brain enema.

I've been without Windows for about 5 months now, using Ubuntu and MacOSX Tiger, and it hurts. OSX isn't too bad, but I can't get past the whole "one button mouse" thing. Let me just say I'm going to enjoy every second of the Windows 7 install on my new computer.
So full of FUD it makes me laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Especially this part
If we all wanted to compile our programs still, we'd still be using old PDP machines with FORTRAN.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah, right. Like you had to compile anything... and if you did, maybe you should try a distro that isn't ten years old. :wink:

The only compiling I do are programs that are in development where I'm pulling the source straight from the developer's repo. And very few of those. I haven't had to compile anything not like the aforementioned app in years now. Just open Synaptic, click the mouse button, and it's installed.

He couldn't limit the mindless FUD to linux either -
OSX isn't too bad, but I can't get past the whole "one button mouse" thing.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Apple's had a FIVE BUTTON mouse out for half a decade!! And could use multi-button mice for twice that period. I haven't seen a one-button Mac mouse outside a museum in years. This kind of silly FUD may have fooled people a decade ago, but you're just making yourself look STUPID these days. :P :P :P :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by losinggeneration » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:25 pm

Code-Red wrote:If we wanted to continue using terminals, DOS would still be the leading OS.
It's already addressed why the terminal is still the preferred way to tell people how to do things in Linux (did you miss that part?) By and large, it's simpler than explaining "Click Start, Click My Computer, Right Click C:\, Click Properties" "But I don't have C:\, I only have Harddrive and CDRom" "Well then Harddrive is want you want" (IIRC you can label the drives that way so that's the way the show up to the user in Windows, it's just a silly example, my main point being that it's quite a bit of work to have to explain, rather than type in 'cat /proc/cpuinfo') Not to mention every major OS still has a terminal/command line to use (which I mentioned before. That alone should be a good indication that it's still a useful power tool.
Code-Red wrote:If we wanted to install libraries before actually being able to use a program...... oh wait. Anyone who actually enjoys/defends installing libraries seriously needs a brain enema.
And you don't have missing library dependencies is Windows? I seem to recall getting software on Windows, going to run it and getting a dialog to the effect "msvcr71.dll not found." Or at least something similar. While most apps will try to include all the needed libraries, they don't always do it. And, there's no automatic dependency handling like 95% of what a user of Ubuntu is going to install. System wide libraries also have an interesting feature that since more programs will be using the exact same library, the system uses less RAM since it can use the library that's already in RAM. This may not always be the case, but it can help. Windows may have cases where it does this too, I don't really recall to be honest. I should also point out that many of those programs will install system wide libraries on Windows too. So it's not a *nix only thing.

Honestly, Ubuntu (just what I'm going to use for this argument) isn't perfect, but I still believe that it'll do a large portion of what most people want it to do without much issue (assuming their hardware works, which can be an issue since most hardware isn't officially supported by the vendors themselves.)

Ender wrote:The issue (as I see it) is that you have a bunch of people all building components without a unified framework. Great for tinkerers, not so much for people who need apps and processes to work together seamlessly. I will say that *nix has moved forward substantially over the past decade and that's great. It just currently isn't as unified as Mac OS, and it isn't as well supported as Windows. If *nix wants to compete, it needs to do *something* better than everyone else, and tinkering is such a niche that I don't think it's worth marketing.
Interesting, I don't really see having one framework as being detrimental to users. I could see how some people may be put off by it. Not to mention that some users may not be happy of the go with QT/KDE, GTK, wxWidgets, etc since they're wanting the application to look and feel native/unified. So yes, I suppose that could be a problem for some people. Really though, for the developer, once they choice their API (and perhaps framework(s)) and language, they have a pretty good foundation to have their application look and feel unified with the rest of the system.
Just a quick note, Linux does desktop effects better than everyone else IMO (and also from the opinion of a Mac user I work with.) I won't lie though, there are some effects that Linux borrowed (for lack of a better word) from OS X, though I don't think Aero had anything used from it, since it was mostly just a copy of what OS X did. Compiz still has some really cool effects that no other system has picked up (mainly because it's more eye candy than anything else, but I've got quite a few "Wows" around the office when they see windows wobbling, or my desktop turn into a massive, two screen wide, cube and spin.) Though, this isn't exactly the kind of thing to drive people to using Linux, but it doesn't hurt to give them an initial "wow" factor when showing them what Linux can do :)

One last thing Ender, if you have a LUG around where you live, I would be willing to bet they'd be more than willing to help you get everything setup correctly. They may even help by doing a bit of research to see if your sound card is (well) supported in Linux. If worst comes to worst, they may recommend you to buy a $15-$20 sound card that's has known support for Linux. Because, just like Windows, if there isn't drivers for the hardware, it's not going to work for you.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Code-Red » Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:10 am

Chilly Willy wrote: Apple's had a FIVE BUTTON mouse out for half a decade!! And could use multi-button mice for twice that period. I haven't seen a one-button Mac mouse outside a museum in years. This kind of silly FUD may have fooled people a decade ago, but you're just making yourself look STUPID these days. :P :P :P :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Is it possible to use a few more smilies in your post? That way you could achieve true douchebag status rather than underachieve and be a presumptuous linux fanboy twat.

You learned "fear, uncertainty, and doubt"! Good boy, but unfortunately you aren't using it in the correct context. I'm a computer user, one of many years. I don't sell machines, I don't make software, so sales/propaganda/marketing tactics are out of the question. As far as politics go, yes, I do hate Linux. I hate Linux after I've used it for a number of months. I hate Linux as both a normal and veteran PC user. I hate Linux as a Mac user. So I'd say, according to my fair usage of the operating system, I've got every right to state my opinion of it. Linux is not a user-friendly operating system, period.

So, go off and troll somewhere else little one. Why you joined a clinically dead forum so late is beyond me in the first place, but why you troll here is another matter in and of itself.

P.S. My iMac G4 has only one button. Thanks for coming out, though. ;)
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Nico0020 » Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:53 am

I've been a linux user for about the past 4 years. I started using ubuntu with dapper, and I will say the transition was not that easy. I was able to find help easier though than I have when trying to use a imac awhile back.

I do have several problems with linux that irritate me to no end. But some of them finally seem to be getting addressed.
No universal package installer. For ubuntu there are .deb files, .rpm for red hat and a million others. I dont understand why each distro has to have its own version of .exe The Ubuntu software store that is coming to the OS in the next 4 releases will be helpful, but still.

When I install a program from synaptic, sometimes the program is not set to automatically add itself to my applications list??? That is useless, I should not have to REMEMBER that I have a program installed and boot it up from the terminal, nor should I have to create my own shortcuts.

there are others, but i can't think of them right now as i'm getting tired.

I love linux and can get just about everything I need done on it. For the less than 5% i cant, i can switch to my windows partition that is only 15GB now. The benefits for me outweigh the problems.

Has ubuntu broken through with linux? Not by a long shot. It is nice to see Dell and a few other companies selling netbooks with ubuntu installed, hell i've seen people on my campus using em. But linux is not far enough user friendly to be competing against microsoft or apple. In probably another 5 years I can see a lot of problems being sorted out, but only time will tell.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Ex-Cyber » Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:42 am

Nico0020 wrote:No universal package installer. For ubuntu there are .deb files, .rpm for red hat and a million others. I dont understand why each distro has to have its own version of .exe
Package file formats are not really the issue. Shared library versions are the issue. This is not a Linux-specific problem. Having distro-specific packages is the primary method in the Linux world for avoiding what Windows users and developers used to call "DLL hell". Microsoft wouldn't be able to do that, so they have a somewhat unwieldy set of developer procedures and system mechanisms to make sure that DLL files get where they need to be. It turns out that this doesn't always work, usually because whoever is in charge of building the package didn't RTFM (a bunch of Windows apps are missing msvcr71.dll and/or msvcp71.dll, for example, because Microsoft changed the distribution procedure for that version of Visual C++ and some people weren't paying attention).

The guys behind Unix, when they created its successor (Plan 9 from Bell Labs), just decided that shared libraries weren't worth the trouble and made all apps statically linked. )()(
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Chilly Willy » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:43 am

Code-Red wrote:
Chilly Willy wrote: Apple's had a FIVE BUTTON mouse out for half a decade!! And could use multi-button mice for twice that period. I haven't seen a one-button Mac mouse outside a museum in years. This kind of silly FUD may have fooled people a decade ago, but you're just making yourself look STUPID these days. :P :P :P :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Is it possible to use a few more smilies in your post? That way you could achieve true douchebag status rather than underachieve and be a presumptuous linux fanboy twat.

You learned "fear, uncertainty, and doubt"! Good boy, but unfortunately you aren't using it in the correct context. I'm a computer user, one of many years. I don't sell machines, I don't make software, so sales/propaganda/marketing tactics are out of the question. As far as politics go, yes, I do hate Linux. I hate Linux after I've used it for a number of months. I hate Linux as both a normal and veteran PC user. I hate Linux as a Mac user. So I'd say, according to my fair usage of the operating system, I've got every right to state my opinion of it. Linux is not a user-friendly operating system, period.

So, go off and troll somewhere else little one. Why you joined a clinically dead forum so late is beyond me in the first place, but why you troll here is another matter in and of itself.

P.S. My iMac G4 has only one button. Thanks for coming out, though. ;)
You're the troll here - spewing Windows propaganda that's a decade out of date. It was so funny I thought you might have been trying to be sarcastic, then I realized you were just a really dumb Windows fanboi. Oh well. I can see why you're an EX admin with your attitude and prejudices.

And I joined because this is a good place for Dreamcast programming info. Don't worry, your antics haven't scared me off - who can be scared of someone using such silly and outlandish tactics as crying "troll" or arguing "I hate having to compile everything" or "one button isn't enough"? I recommend you go over to Microsoft's web site and update your propaganda. You're WAAAAAAAAAAY out of date. :wink:
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Code-Red » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:38 pm

As you seem to be hard of reading or intellegence, I'll repeat myself just this once:
Code-Red wrote:I hate Linux as both a normal and veteran PC user.
Code-Red wrote:I hate Linux as a Mac user.
I fail to see where I'm a Windows "fanboi", or where I'm spewing propaganda. Considering this is my objective view on Linux, and I've been willing to give it months to change, I figure I've given it a pretty fair chance.
Chilly Willy wrote:"I hate having to compile everything"
Haha, maybe I should play the "lets distort quote's" game too. If you're going to argue, please do it properly.

Insert "Special Olympics Internet Argument Picture" here.
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by Chilly Willy » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:40 pm

Your relevant statements were
If we all wanted to compile our programs still, we'd still be using old PDP machines with FORTRAN. If we wanted to continue using terminals, DOS would still be the leading OS.
OSX isn't too bad, but I can't get past the whole "one button mouse" thing.
The first quote shows you're ignorance about linux os/ap distribution - source isn't even required on GENTOO anymore, and hasn't been for years. Nearly 100% of linux os and apps are distributed via binary packages, and every distro uses one of the major package managers to make things easy (Smart, Synaptic, YUMEX, YaST, etc). It also shows you don't know when a terminal is or is not needed. You act like EVERYTHING needs to be done through the terminal when the truth is (and has been for years) that almost nothing needs the terminal. People still use the terminal when it's more convenient, like typing "yum install geany" instead of opening Synaptic, clicking on geany, then clicking install. A simple GUI can be used, or a simple terminal command can be used. You seem enamored of GUIs... well, they're there!

The second quote displays your ignorance of Macs and OSX, even though you CLAIM to have a G4 Mac. I've been using a three button mouse on my G3 iMac since I got it. Sorry, but you seem to be the contestant in the Special Olympics, not me. 8-)
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Re: I think linux might have "broken through" with ubuntu

Post by losinggeneration » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:47 am

Code-Red wrote:Considering this is my objective view on Linux, and I've been willing to give it months to change, I figure I've given it a pretty fair chance.
Well, if you started using Vista (as a "normal and veteran PC user") and only gave it a few months to change (from initial release and from everything I've gathered about the initial response of Vista), you'd be (at least a little) frustrated with MS and Vista. Though, from what I've read, the SP1/SP2 for Vista helped considerably, but that took over a year to put out each SP.

I wouldn't know for sure about the opinions though, since I've only used Vista for maybe 5 hours total. So I don't have too much of an opinion on it myself. Then again, maybe the people that absolutely loved Vista escaped my radar (very possible.) The point being, giving something like an OS "months to change" isn't really fair considering how much work it is to make large changes. Giving it a few years to change would be more fair.
Chilly Willy wrote:even though you CLAIM to have a G4 Mac. I've been using a three button mouse on my G3 iMac since I got it
IIRC all the iMacs I've ever used, mainly at school(s), they've all had (by default) one mouse button. G3 hocky puck mouse Also, a quote from wikipedia's Apple Mighty Mouse article.
It was announced and sold for the first time on August 2, 2005. Before the Mighty Mouse, Apple had sold only one-button mice with its computers, beginning with the Apple Lisa 22 years earlier.
So while it may have been possible to use more mouse buttons prior to that, it wasn't the standard shipped mouse.
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