About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

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About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by gamedudex2 » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:39 pm

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/ ... usive/1325

for once quality wins. glad this didn't end up like vhs vs betamax.

all hddvd has left are paramount/dreamworks (who hardly has anything coming out on hddvd) universal (the main supporter who will prob go blu in 2008-09)
Last edited by gamedudex2 on Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by Nick » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:15 pm

Kind of makes me glad that I didn't buy either player [yet], but I feel bad for everyone who is now going to end up getting fucked since they bought an HD-DVD player. They sold some pretty solid numbers [not huge, huge] at pretty expensive prices, so early adopters are out a couple hundred plus.

Although I wouldn't be so quick to sign HD-DVD's death warrant. They have the better deals right now, an equal quality or better picture, and the cheaper players. It's not over, yet.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by Nico0020 » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:37 pm

yea i didnt like when i read that. Since ive finally started to build my HD DVD collection. I was really excited about tripple layer HD DVD's. Oh well though..... :( I'll keep buying my HD DVD's for the time being.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by impetus » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:26 pm

Nick wrote:Kind of makes me glad that I didn't buy either player [yet], but I feel bad for everyone who is now going to end up getting fucked since they bought an HD-DVD player. They sold some pretty solid numbers [not huge, huge] at pretty expensive prices, so early adopters are out a couple hundred plus.

Although I wouldn't be so quick to sign HD-DVD's death warrant. They have the better deals right now, an equal quality or better picture, and the cheaper players. It's not over, yet.
I totally hate that Blu-Ray lines Sony's pocket, but personally I'm not too broken up about it (I have about 30+ movies in each format). For HD-DVD owners, a Blu-Ray "win" would eventually mean sweeping clearance sales of existing stock, and a chance to buy up a decent selection of hi-def movies inexpensively.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by melancholy » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:40 pm

Well, we gave Sony shit for over a year about the PS3 being stupidly expensive due to the inclusion of Blu-Ray drives, but it would appear that for once the little gamble Sony took paid off.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by BlackAura » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:20 am

gamedudex2 wrote:for once quality wins.
:?

Aside from the kind of lasers the drives use to read the disc, the two formats are virtually identical.

(If you don't want to read the details, and are willing to take my word on it, just skip down to the line of asterisks)

Both discs have the same maximum capacity (around 50GB). Practically, most BluRay releases are single layer (25GB), and most HD-DVD releases are dual layer (30GB).

Both discs use the exact same video codecs (MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC, and Microsoft's VC-1), with comparable specifications and limitations. Using either AVC or VC-1, 25GB is overkill for a high-def movie - throwing any more at it will not improve video quality in the slightest. Video quality between the two formats is exactly equivalent.

Yes, you can fit more special features onto a larger disc. I really doubt that's going to happen though - DVDs used to frequently have a second 9GB disc filled with special features. I haven't seen a new one in years, but I have plenty of them from 4 or 5 years ago. Studios have abandoned doing extra features on DVDs - what makes anyone think they'll start back up just because they have a bit more space to work with.

Both disc formats use the same audio codecs as well - a choice between linear PCM, lossless compressed LPCM (with a couple of different codecs, but the details don't matter because the end result is identical), Dolby AC-3 and DTS. Again, audio quality between the two formats is exactly equivalent.

Both discs use the exact same copy protection system.

Both disc formats have comparable interactivity. In theory, BluRay is better because there are different levels of interactivity, with the highest being better than HD-DVD. However, there are no players (except the PS3, which would still need a firmware update) out there right now that will handle it. HD-DVD's support is better than BluRay's baseline support, and this is actually being used right now, while BluRay is still stuck at baseline, and probably will be for years.

********************************

The only advantages one format has over the other are non-technical.

I can see only two advantages for BluRay at the moment.
  • The PS3 has a BluRay drive
  • BluRay writers for PCs actually exist
Neither of those are compelling advantages. If a PS3 owner is into movies, and would actually use the BluRay capabilities, what's to stop them picking up a cheap HD-DVD player.

On HD-DVD's side:
  • More players available
  • Players are cheaper
  • Possibility of hybrid discs
The last could have been a killer advantage, allowing people to build up and HD-DVD collection for free while they build their existing DVD collection, and then just upgrade the player later on. Sadly, aside from the remastered Star Trek, I've not seen a single hybrid DVD/HD-DVD release.

Both formats still suffer from the crippling disadvantage that each has 50% support from movie studios. No matter which you choose, you're still going to be stuck with only being able to see 50% of the HD movies out there. The selection is pretty poor on both formats anyway.

The only question is which will happen first. Will Sony succeed in bribing everyone to supporting only their disc format, or will reasonably priced dual format players appear. The latter would render the entire thing pointless, and we'd end up with a situation similar to the DVD-R / DVD+R mess we had with DVD burners - two formats, but nobody cares because they're effectively interchangeable.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by Christuserloeser » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:10 am

BlackAura wrote:On HD-DVD's side:
  • More players available
  • Players are cheaper
  • Possibility of hybrid discs
The last could have been a killer advantage, allowing people to build up and HD-DVD collection for free while they build their existing DVD collection, and then just upgrade the player later on. Sadly, aside from the remastered Star Trek, I've not seen a single hybrid DVD/HD-DVD release.

Both formats still suffer from the crippling disadvantage that each has 50% support from movie studios. No matter which you choose, you're still going to be stuck with only being able to see 50% of the HD movies out there. The selection is pretty poor on both formats anyway.

The only question is which will happen first. Will Sony succeed in bribing everyone to supporting only their disc format, or will reasonably priced dual format players appear. The latter would render the entire thing pointless, and we'd end up with a situation similar to the DVD-R / DVD+R mess we had with DVD burners - two formats, but nobody cares because they're effectively interchangeable.
Amen to that. - I didn't know about the hybrid feature and that actually would have been a reason for me to go with HD-DVD... I am looking forward to the day when HD/BR dual format players go for 100-200 Euros; but for now I am pretty happy with DVD and all the extremely rare stuff you can find for it. :)
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by melancholy » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:14 am

BlackAura wrote:The last could have been a killer advantage, allowing people to build up and HD-DVD collection for free while they build their existing DVD collection, and then just upgrade the player later on. Sadly, aside from the remastered Star Trek, I've not seen a single hybrid DVD/HD-DVD release.
Actually, most HD-DVD releases I have seen recently have been hybrid discs, the most recent being Ocean's Thirteen and Harry Potter, but there are plenty more out there. And that is a great advantage.

Unfortunately, though, my HD preference is Blu-Ray solely because of my PS3. Me and my wife plan on getting an HD-DVD player with this year's tax check, but with another major studio abandoning the HD-DVD ship, I might rethink that purchase.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by impetus » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:16 am

BlackAura wrote:Sadly, aside from the remastered Star Trek, I've not seen a single hybrid DVD/HD-DVD release.
They're common in the US.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by Skynet » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:27 am

impetus wrote:
BlackAura wrote:Sadly, aside from the remastered Star Trek, I've not seen a single hybrid DVD/HD-DVD release.
They're common in the US.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by BlackAura » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:49 am

melancholy wrote:Actually, most HD-DVD releases I have seen recently have been hybrid discs, the most recent being Ocean's Thirteen and Harry Potter, but there are plenty more out there. And that is a great advantage.
Really? It's probably just be our crappy country then. Either that, or they just aren't bothering to publicise it. Considering they've only sold around 2000 HD-DVD players in this country, that's probably not too surprising.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by Quzar » Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:03 am

gamedudex2 wrote:for once quality wins. glad this didn't end up like vhs vs betamax.
Beta was virtually identical to VHS in quality while VHS offered longer record times for home use.

As to the point of blu-ray writers being availible, over here I have seen HD DVD writers, and the media is a LOT cheaper per gb. The biggest advantage BR has in this area is that it comes built in in these new fangled laptops.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by gamedudex2 » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:04 am

Quzar wrote:
gamedudex2 wrote:for once quality wins. glad this didn't end up like vhs vs betamax.
Beta was virtually identical to VHS in quality while VHS offered longer record times for home use.

As to the point of blu-ray writers being availible, over here I have seen HD DVD writers, and the media is a LOT cheaper per gb. The biggest advantage BR has in this area is that it comes built in in these new fangled laptops.
beta video quality is a hell of a lot better than vhs

bluray has the potential to offer a higher quality 1080p than hdvd due to its higher bitrate. (less compression and bigger disc size....note potential)

most bluray discs beat hdvd in picture and sound (many discs that went neutrel had these issues)

but hdvd only has 2 studios that really support them... actually one since paramount hasn't released much on the format, and has very little coming out this year so far.


don't forget apple will go bluray. steve jobbs sits on the disney board of directors.


one major advantage bluray has is family support. most family oriented and kids tv/film are on bluray
warner/disney

another is porn. while porn went neutrel last year, most studios have said bluray sales have been much higher than hdvd proving many gamers are into porn....lol. the porn studios will prob go bluray only this year.

paramount's hdvd contract ends january 2009.

steven spielberg is a bluray supporter and is talking about moving dreamworks back to universal which means universal will have to go bluray or neutra. alsol will all speilberg films going bluray. also only a few early speilberg films can go hdvd since he doesnt own them. Indiana jones will go bluray though as both him and lucas are supporters of blu. but i doubt star wars will hit bluray until after the 3d transfers hit theatres.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by Quzar » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:52 pm

gamedudex2 wrote:
Quzar wrote:
gamedudex2 wrote:for once quality wins. glad this didn't end up like vhs vs betamax.
Beta was virtually identical to VHS in quality while VHS offered longer record times for home use.
beta video quality is a hell of a lot better than vhs
I'd like some citation to that effect. As far as I have ever read (I did my IB thesis paper on a subject which in large part focused on VHS vs Beta) it is only ever claimed that it was better, but not significantly so, and those who do say significantly so (hell of a lot in your terms) refer to the extensions of Beta.

This is specifically so when you compare a 2 hour Beta tape (Beta-II) to a 2 hour VHS (VHS SP). VHS was far superior for home use though, with record times going up to 8 hours on a single tape.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by gamedudex2 » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:45 pm

well ya by beta im used to the professional marketed betasp which is much better than anything vhs. but vhs won due to ease of use and cheaper price, that and porn.

the 90s had many failed formats as well. divx , dvhs, and sony was making its own dvd standard which they dropped out of before it hit the market.

bit for home use beta was of a higher quality but it suffered from lower record times. that and vhs had all the studio support. (beta was better but not vhs to dvd or vhs to ld better)
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by Veggita2099 » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:45 pm

Personally I can't tell any difference between regular dvd's and blu-ray movies. Maybe my hdtv isn't new enough but I have watched several blue ray movies and they don't look any better then watching a DVD on my Xbox 360.

As far as renting goes I will still take blu-ray since its the same cost with netflix, however as far as buying a movie goes Id rather pay $15 for a regular dvd then $30 for a hd version of it.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by Quzar » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:55 am

gamedudex2 wrote:well ya by beta im used to the professional marketed betasp which is much better than anything vhs.
afaik SVHS is better than all but ED Beta between the two sets in the analog world. In terms of digital, W-VHS and D-VHS are both higher quality than the highest digital beta.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by BlackAura » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:08 am

gamedudex2 wrote:well ya by beta im used to the professional marketed betasp which is much better than anything vhs.
Not really comparable with VHS though, is it? Betacam tapes where physically not that much different than Betamax tapes, but the actual recording was very different. The tapes ran at a faster speed (around 6 times faster), giving it much increased signal bandwidth at the cost of drastically reduced recording time, and it stored separate luma and chroma signals rather than a single composite video signal.

Besides, Betacam SP was developed in 1986 for professional broadcast use, Betacam itself was developed in 1983, while Betamax was developed in 1975 for home use.
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by MulletMan13 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:49 pm

Veggita2099 wrote:Personally I can't tell any difference between regular dvd's and blu-ray movies. Maybe my hdtv isn't new enough but I have watched several blue ray movies and they don't look any better then watching a DVD on my Xbox 360.
I've noticed a few HD movies have shitty transfers (i.e. Zoolander), but the difference should be quite apparent. Like watching a non-HD television channel vs. an HD version of it... should be very, very noticable. Or playing 360 in 480p vs. 720p/1080i.... hrmm?
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Re: About time. hd format war pretty much over, warner goes blu

Post by mankrip » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:53 pm

MulletMan13 wrote:
Veggita2099 wrote:Personally I can't tell any difference between regular dvd's and blu-ray movies. Maybe my hdtv isn't new enough but I have watched several blue ray movies and they don't look any better then watching a DVD on my Xbox 360.
I've noticed a few HD movies have shitty transfers (i.e. Zoolander), but the difference should be quite apparent. Like watching a non-HD television channel vs. an HD version of it... should be very, very noticable. Or playing 360 in 480p vs. 720p/1080i.... hrmm?
Doesn't the blu-ray players have some annoying content protection that downgrades the picture quality depending on the cables or TV you're using?
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