Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

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Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by CupNoodle »

Forget about the threat that mankind poses to the Earth: our activities may be shortening the life of the universe too.

The startling claim is made by a pair of American cosmologists investigating the consequences for the cosmos of quantum theory, the most successful theory we have. Over the past few years, cosmologists have taken this powerful theory of what happens at the level of subatomic particles and tried to extend it to understand the universe, since it began in the subatomic realm during the Big Bang.

But there is an odd feature of the theory that philosophers and scientists still argue about. In a nutshell, the theory suggests that we change things simply by looking at them and theorists have puzzled over the implications for years.

They often illustrate their concerns about what the theory means with mind-boggling experiments, notably Schrodinger's cat in which, thanks to a fancy experimental set up, the moggy is both alive and dead until someone decides to look, when it either carries on living, or dies. That is, by one interpretation (by another, the universe splits into two, one with a live cat and one with a dead one.)

New Scientist reports a worrying new variant as the cosmologists claim that astronomers may have accidentally nudged the universe closer to its death by observing dark energy, a mysterious anti gravity force which is thought to be speeding up the expansion of the cosmos.

The damaging allegations are made by Profs Lawrence Krauss of Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, and James Dent of Vanderbilt University, Nashville, who suggest that by making this observation in 1998 we may have caused the cosmos to revert to an earlier state when it was more likely to end. "Incredible as it seems, our detection of the dark energy may have reduced the life-expectancy of the universe," Prof Krauss tells New Scientist.

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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by Wagh »

There is no way this is true.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by Roofus »

Wagh wrote:There is no way this is true.
Why can't you accept that mankind is an inherently evil, destructive force and now it's the entire universe that will suffer for our existence?
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by APE »

Schroedinger was about the fact if you observed a particle the results would be worthless because they were changed by the measurement of speed and direction. Thing is those photons have been traveling for a very, very long time. Wherever they came from has long since changed, even if observing and measuring the light could change something how do you expect it to effect something from this sort of distance in any worthwhile time frame?
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by jaredfogle »

Wagh wrote:There is no way this is true.
Eugene Wigner thinks the collapse of the wave function (this occurs when we measure or observe) is only caused by consciousness. Wave functions do not collapse on their own.

It is very interesting and tricky stuff. Consciousness is emergent phenomenon as far as we know--it might be weirder and more powerful than we think.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by jaredfogle »

APE wrote:Schroedinger was about the fact if you observed a particle the results would be worthless because they were changed by the measurement of speed and direction. Thing is those photons have been traveling for a very, very long time. Wherever they came from has long since changed, even if observing and measuring the light could change something how do you expect it to effect something from this sort of distance in any worthwhile time frame?
One of us needs to brush up on Schrodinger. I think it's you.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by JellyWarrior »

According to quantum theory don't they say that every electron is everywhere in the universe at once? (and that includes everywhere in time too, imagine getting somewhere before you arrive :S)

soooo ... umm... It certainly means that the universe is a strange strange place and you can't write anything off as impossible.

By the same theory, perhaps in the past we've also looked up at the sky and accidentally extended the existence of the universe far beyond what it was meant to be as well?
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by Wagh »

jaredfogle wrote:
APE wrote:Schroedinger was about the fact if you observed a particle the results would be worthless because they were changed by the measurement of speed and direction. Thing is those photons have been traveling for a very, very long time. Wherever they came from has long since changed, even if observing and measuring the light could change something how do you expect it to effect something from this sort of distance in any worthwhile time frame?
One of us needs to brush up on Schrodinger. I think it's you.
No, It's you.

jaredfogle wrote:
Wagh wrote:There is no way this is true.
Eugene Wigner thinks the collapse of the wave function (this occurs when we measure or observe) is only caused by consciousness. Wave functions do not collapse on their own.

It is very interesting and tricky stuff. Consciousness is emergent phenomenon as far as we know--it might be weirder and more powerful than we think.
The scale of what they're talking about is unknown. Sure, they might've hit upon something really amazing. More than likely not though. Junk Science at it's best. If anything Quantum Mechanics and such like it are just counting systems for phenomenon we don't understand. But with the math behind it there's no way we could know. As for the "power" of the consciousness, well that's way too early to even begin theorizing what we can do. Read some Chomsky on language and you'd know we just arnt there yet and probably wont be for a while.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by jaredfogle »

Wagh wrote:
jaredfogle wrote:
Wagh wrote:There is no way this is true.
Eugene Wigner thinks the collapse of the wave function (this occurs when we measure or observe) is only caused by consciousness. Wave functions do not collapse on their own.

It is very interesting and tricky stuff. Consciousness is emergent phenomenon as far as we know--it might be weirder and more powerful than we think.
The scale of what they're talking about is unknown. Sure, they might've hit upon something really amazing. More than likely not though. Junk Science at it's best. If anything Quantum Mechanics and such like it are just counting systems for phenomenon we don't understand. But with the math behind it there's no way we could know. As for the "power" of the consciousness, well that's way too early to even begin theorizing what we can do. Read some Chomsky on language and you'd know we just arnt there yet and probably wont be for a while.
I've read enough Chomsky.

I don't think you're understanding my point. Structure everything in this world hierarchically with prerequisites beneath each category. From bottom to top you have something like: incomprehensible energy----> atoms----> molecules/chemicals/minerals----> early life (bacteria, etc.)----> mammals----> high mammals----> consciousness. I left out several branches in the evolutionary story. The model is not the point.

The point is that if one wishes to understand a thing, he must attend to relevant concerns. Atomic theory is not terribly relevant if we're studying an algae. Yes, the algae are comprised entirely of atoms. The algae are more than the sum of their parts, though. The animating quality they have (and that some lumps of atoms might not) is life.

Life emerged from matter. Matter is a prerequisite. Matter is not necessarily worse or better than life, it is just lower on the organization totem pole. I'm drifting a little more from my point... Consciousness should be attended to on its own level. Drawing conclusions about its nature from observations of falling rocks is a nasty idea.

I'll dig up David Hume if that didn't make any sense.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by lackofsense »

Does observation truly require consciousness. Is a cougar stalking it's prey aware of the repercussions of its actions beyond the need for food? Don't "lower" creatures also see and interact with light whether they know it or not?
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by jaredfogle »

lackofsense wrote:Does observation truly require consciousness. Is a cougar stalking it's prey aware of the repercussions of its actions beyond the need for food? Don't "lower" creatures also see and interact with light whether they know it or not?
I don't think observation requires consciousness. But is a tiger's interaction with his environment enough be be considered consciousness? We think the first sense to develop back in the chemical/bacteria world's early life was smell. Is a single-celled organism's smelling of its surroundings really a very thorough awareness?

I think there is something fundamentally different about human consciousness. If a tiger saw an extraterrestrial, it would pay no more consideration than the normal 3 F's. Fight. Flee. Fuck. One COA would be chosen and the tiger would move on (or perhaps die if he chose fight). Imagine how many different reactions humans might have.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by mankrip »

APE wrote:Schroedinger was about the fact if you observed a particle the results would be worthless because they were changed by the measurement of speed and direction.
That's what I think too. When you measure light, x-rays, etc. you affect the measured wave/particles, not the place where they came from. Thinking otherwise sounds kinda retarded.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by jaredfogle »

Manoel wrote:
APE wrote:Schroedinger was about the fact if you observed a particle the results would be worthless because they were changed by the measurement of speed and direction.
That's what I think too. When you measure light, x-rays, etc. you affect the measured wave/particles, not the place where they came from. Thinking otherwise sounds kinda retarded.
That's how it seems from a sort of Newtonian (or "common sense") perspective.

The cat is a thought experiment, by the way. AFAIK, the experiment has never been performed.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

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jaredfogle wrote:
Manoel wrote:
APE wrote:Schroedinger was about the fact if you observed a particle the results would be worthless because they were changed by the measurement of speed and direction.
That's what I think too. When you measure light, x-rays, etc. you affect the measured wave/particles, not the place where they came from. Thinking otherwise sounds kinda retarded.
That's how it seems from a sort of Newtonian (or "common sense") perspective.

The cat is a thought experiment, by the way. AFAIK, the experiment has never been performed.
That's how it is explained though. You keep going off on the power of "consciousness" which isn't the discussion here.

The cat experiment could never be performed that's why it has to be a thought experiment.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

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Wagh wrote:
jaredfogle wrote:
Manoel wrote:
APE wrote:Schroedinger was about the fact if you observed a particle the results would be worthless because they were changed by the measurement of speed and direction.
That's what I think too. When you measure light, x-rays, etc. you affect the measured wave/particles, not the place where they came from. Thinking otherwise sounds kinda retarded.
That's how it seems from a sort of Newtonian (or "common sense") perspective.

The cat is a thought experiment, by the way. AFAIK, the experiment has never been performed.
That's how it is explained though. You keep going off on the power of "consciousness" which isn't the discussion here.

The cat experiment could never be performed that's why it has to be a thought experiment.
I don't understand how we got to measuring where particles come from vs where they are. I don't see how the cat plays into this.

And gj marginalizing a thing I say by putting it in quotes. "Consciousness"? Guh-huh? What's that new age crap?

Here's a quote from wikipedia:
One of the paradoxes of quantum theory is that wave function seems to be more than just information (otherwise interference effects are hard to explain) and often less than real, since the collapse seems to take place faster-than-light and triggered by observers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function_collapse

Remember that the essential problem with the Cat is the collapse of the wave function and the part we play in it.


Also, Wagh, if you'll remember the article we're discussing... Consciousness is precisely our subject. How human awareness and participation affects (or doesn't) the universe. Maybe you're talking about a bland interpretation of the Cat, I'm not. Also, did you read my post about treating things appropriately to their nature? About how the laws governing falling rocks might not apply to an emergent phenomenon like life a billion years ago or consciousness ten thousand ago?

I don't claim any expertise in this field, it is a hobby and little more for me. But I'm pretty sure I'm right about the things I'm saying. I enjoy this type of discussion, I haven't had good reason to read about this stuff lately with school and all that mess taking up my time. If I come off as hostile, its all in sport.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by Wagh »

jaredfogle wrote:I don't understand how we got to measuring where particles come from vs where they are. I don't see how the cat plays into this.
I was pointing out that it's impossible to do that experiment. That's the point. Also. You just glazed over the purpose of quantum mechanics. lol.
jaredfogle wrote: Also, Wagh, if you'll remember the article we're discussing... Consciousness is precisely our subject. How human awareness and participation affects (or doesn't) the universe. Maybe you're talking about a bland interpretation of the Cat, I'm not. Also, did you read my post about treating things appropriately to their nature? About how the laws governing falling rocks might not apply to an emergent phenomenon like life a billion years ago or consciousness ten thousand ago?
The article isn't about how meer thought can effect the way the universe is. It is loosley trying to tie the fact that we have tried to observe dark matter and what that means in the world of quantum theory.

Not trying to knock you down a peg but it shows that this is just a hobby reading for you. I am by no means a master of the subject either. Just my breif struggle with trying to make it make sense to me. But really shit like this isn't true.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by jaredfogle »

Wagh wrote:The article isn't about how meer thought can effect the way the universe is.
The Article wrote:astronomers may have accidentally nudged the universe closer to its death by observing dark energy
This is an old problem in QM (it comes up so often there's even a wikipedia article for it, "Consciousness Causes Collapse"). It is not gone, though. It is also precisely the subject of the article we're discussing.

It has not been solved any more than the Trinity vs Unity problem in Christianity. You can take your stance on the matter, but the article is an exploration of the possibility. There is no reason to deny that. The scientists quoted tip-toe a little lighter than the authors do, but consciousness and the collapse still seems to be what we're looking at here.


Because of this thread, I've encountered "quantum decoherence" and am finally going to take the plunge into arachnoid.org's dark energy article (I've read most of that guy's stuff and loved it, the calc. primer for the DE article has been putting me off, though).
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by Wagh »

jaredfogle wrote:
Wagh wrote:The article isn't about how meer thought can effect the way the universe is.
The Article wrote:astronomers may have accidentally nudged the universe closer to its death by observing dark energy
The article still isn't about what you're implying. It's about experiments done on dark matter. Actual experiments. Read it.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

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Wagh wrote:
jaredfogle wrote:
Wagh wrote:The article isn't about how meer thought can effect the way the universe is.
The Article wrote:astronomers may have accidentally nudged the universe closer to its death by observing dark energy
The article still isn't about what you're implying. It's about experiments done on dark matter. Actual experiments. Read it.
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Re: Mankind shortening lifespan of universe

Post by lackofsense »

jaredfogle wrote:
lackofsense wrote:Does observation truly require consciousness. Is a cougar stalking it's prey aware of the repercussions of its actions beyond the need for food? Don't "lower" creatures also see and interact with light whether they know it or not?
I don't think observation requires consciousness. But is a tiger's interaction with his environment enough be be considered consciousness? We think the first sense to develop back in the chemical/bacteria world's early life was smell. Is a single-celled organism's smelling of its surroundings really a very thorough awareness?

I think there is something fundamentally different about human consciousness. If a tiger saw an extraterrestrial, it would pay no more consideration than the normal 3 F's. Fight. Flee. Fuck. One COA would be chosen and the tiger would move on (or perhaps die if he chose fight). Imagine how many different reactions humans might have.
I made no claim to as to whether or not creatures considerer lower have consciousness. My argument follows chaos. It is simply a statement that humans around the only ones effecting things on the quantum level in possibility. I attempted to imply that the subjects in question were not aware of the possible effects their existence may or may not cause.

On to your next point. How sure are you that human interactions with extraterrestrials wouldn't follow the three F's. Certain portions of the of the population would be afraid. While others would wish for peaceful coexistence. While others would be externally violent. There you have the ideas in this order: flee, fuck, and fight. Other reactions would be a mixture of these 3 in varying levels. For example, a general feigns peace in order to learn more about his or her enemy. Out of fear the individual in question bides their time in order to become violent later. While this isn't the concepts in their simplest forms, it is an odd intermingling of the three.
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