When will Sony learn?

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When will Sony learn?

Post by |darc| » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:28 am

This is ridiculous. They just keep on doing this shit...

http://sonystrikesagain.wordpress.com/
Sony Pictures DVD’s have a new a copy protection that makes the movies unplayable on some Sony (& other makes) DVD players!

YES ! It appears that Sony have done it again. In their zeal to make their DVD movies copyproof (yeah right) they have in fact made their latest releases unplayable on some DVD players, including my Sony DVP-CX995V DVD player. I recently rented “Stranger than Fiction” (2 copies) and “The Holiday” ( please no comments on my choice of movies) both by Sony Pictures. Both load up to the splash title screen and then load no further, then after about 60 secs the player turns itself off!

ALL my other DVD’s and new releases from other movie companies play perfectly

I called Sony Electronics help line and they said to call Sony Pictures 1-800-860-2878 which I did.

The following is a compression of our discussion:

Sony Tech: We know about this problem. Its our new copy protection that’s making these discs unplayable in some players including our own, we do not intend to change the copy protection. The only correction to this problem is a firmware update to your player. The electronics division know about this and should have given you this information.

Me: OK send me the firmware update.

Sony Tech: We do not have one as yet.

Me: OK (a bit frustrated) when will it be available?

Sony Tech: It could be 2 weeks it could be a month, we don’t know.

He then took my phone number and said ”they” would let me know when the firmware update is available, but declined to take my address saying that they would get that when the update was available.

I will say that I got a live person on both support lines within 30 secs.

Here are my questions to Sony:

After spending $350 on a Sony DVD player 3 months ago am I now supposed to avoid Sony Pictures products?

You are still advertising the Sony DVP-CX995V prominently on the Sony USA website but I notice there is no disclaimer that it may not play some new Sony Pictures DVD’s.

Would it not be a good idea to test changes you intend to make on your DVD’s at least on your own equipment so that if you find a problem you could have the firmware update available instead of not only inconveniencing, but alienating your own customers.

I believe this problem is happening on other manufacturers devices, are they working feverishly on firmware updates to accommodate you?

Well thats my rant (yeah I feel a bit better now)
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Post by Skynet » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:05 am

Wow... :lol:

I can't wait until they do that with PS3 games then.
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Post by perry » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:17 am

It shows how badly they're fucking up and how often, when a story like this is no longer surprising.
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Post by Specially Cork » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:24 am

And on top of all that it took me 5 seconds to find DVD downloads of both of those movies mentioned, so it is completely pointless anyway. Congratulations Sony on your latest success. :roll:
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Post by Veggita2099 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:59 am

Anymore I think Copy protection hurts people who want to actually legitly buy something more then it does the bootleggers. Seriously I have had to fight with Microsoft every since I got XP (and im sure Vista if I should ever upgrade) over changing computer parts out. Yet all those years I used unfavorable copies of previous OS's I never had any problems.

I just don't understand why these companies are so concerned with this. I mean I could understand if profits was actually falling because of pirating but they are not. I mean Bill Gates for example is probably one of the richest men in the world yet look at the BS we have to put up with on the 360 and his OS's because of copyright crap. In fact in my case its costing Bill Gates money because ID be downloading the crap out of HD CSI episodes if they didn't lock out external hard drives. But because I only get 20 gigs of room to work with I can't.


Same thing with Sony, while there PS3 isn't doing so hot they are hardly going bankrupt or anything. Studies have been done and pretty much showed that 90% of the people who download pirated stuff generally would have never actually bought it anyways. ITs foolish to screw your 99% of the world paying customers over the 1% that might actually download something without paying.

As stated this is Sony though.
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Post by DaMadFiddler » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:20 pm

Veggita2099 wrote:I think Copy protection hurts people who want to actually legitly buy something more then it does the bootleggers.
Been singing that song for years. Probably the single greatest example of this is StarForce, which actually drove many gamers to simply stop purchasing any titles that made use of it, because the product was often unusable.

Honestly, though, DRM and the DMCA are not really all about preventing piracy. That is a concern, but only a secondary one...which just happens to make a great cover story. The real concern is that is that major studios and publishers *hate* legal precedents such as "public domain" and "fair use," and these are major, heavyweight drives to eliminate them, both through functionality and through legislation. Here's an Ars Technica article on that subject. This isn't a conspiracy theory; it's just the politics of big business.

That said, this is a little sad. I actually liked Stranger Than Fiction, and wouldn't have minded having a copy...but my DVD player is an older JVC disc changer, from 2000/2001. I'm not going to go out and replace all my hardware just because Sony has their pants in a twist about DVD copying, especially over a Will Ferrell movie. It's like the FBI warnings: you can't make something copy-proof, and people picking up a pirated copy will already have had that stuff stripped out. The only people you're hurting are your legitimate consumers, and people will only put up with so much aggravation before they just stop buying. This is why I still get all my music on CD, instead of through iTunes or whatnot.
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Post by FiendWithoutAface » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:30 pm

Veggita2099 wrote:Anymore I think Copy protection hurts people who want to actually legitly buy something more then it does the bootleggers. Seriously I have had to fight with Microsoft every since I got XP (and im sure Vista if I should ever upgrade) over changing computer parts out. Yet all those years I used unfavorable copies of previous OS's I never had any problems.

I just don't understand why these companies are so concerned with this. I mean I could understand if profits was actually falling because of pirating but they are not. I mean Bill Gates for example is probably one of the richest men in the world yet look at the BS we have to put up with on the 360 and his OS's because of copyright crap. In fact in my case its costing Bill Gates money because ID be downloading the crap out of HD CSI episodes if they didn't lock out external hard drives. But because I only get 20 gigs of room to work with I can't.


Same thing with Sony, while there PS3 isn't doing so hot they are hardly going bankrupt or anything. Studies have been done and pretty much showed that 90% of the people who download pirated stuff generally would have never actually bought it anyways. ITs foolish to screw your 99% of the world paying customers over the 1% that might actually download something without paying.

As stated this is Sony though.
"I mean Bill Gates for example is probably one of the richest men in the world yet look at the BS we have to put up with on the 360 and his OS's because of copyright crap"

You don't have to put up with it. Just don't buy his products. The moment MS's bullshit got too thick, I dropped em like a bad habit.
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Post by butters » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:49 pm

FiendWithoutAface wrote:
Veggita2099 wrote:Anymore I think Copy protection hurts people who want to actually legitly buy something more then it does the bootleggers. Seriously I have had to fight with Microsoft every since I got XP (and im sure Vista if I should ever upgrade) over changing computer parts out. Yet all those years I used unfavorable copies of previous OS's I never had any problems.

I just don't understand why these companies are so concerned with this. I mean I could understand if profits was actually falling because of pirating but they are not. I mean Bill Gates for example is probably one of the richest men in the world yet look at the BS we have to put up with on the 360 and his OS's because of copyright crap. In fact in my case its costing Bill Gates money because ID be downloading the crap out of HD CSI episodes if they didn't lock out external hard drives. But because I only get 20 gigs of room to work with I can't.


Same thing with Sony, while there PS3 isn't doing so hot they are hardly going bankrupt or anything. Studies have been done and pretty much showed that 90% of the people who download pirated stuff generally would have never actually bought it anyways. ITs foolish to screw your 99% of the world paying customers over the 1% that might actually download something without paying.

As stated this is Sony though.
"I mean Bill Gates for example is probably one of the richest men in the world yet look at the BS we have to put up with on the 360 and his OS's because of copyright crap"

You don't have to put up with it. Just don't buy his products. The moment MS's bullshit got too thick, I dropped em like a bad habit.
Which works just great until [alternative to Windows] doesn't do something you want it to and you end up going back to Windows for that purpose.
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Post by |darc| » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:52 pm

We were having a discussion about this in #dcemu the other day. The pirated product has become much higher in quality than the legitimate product. I can buy a DVD, be forced to watch antipiracy warnings, be forced to watch previews and advertisements for the company's other movies, deal with copy protection bullshit that doesn't let me do what I want to (legally) do with my movies (like stick them on my iPod), and NOW I don't necessarily know if they will play on my hardware. Or I can just download a DVD and do whatever the hell I want with it.

This will not (and will never) curb the piracy of the warez scene; the day all the pirate groups can't crack a media format (as if...), they will play it on their TV and use a video camera to record it and release it to everyone like that (and the lower quality just might be worth it to avoid all the bullshit). Sure, this will stop casual copying a little bit, but I don't really know anyone who casually copies DVDs but doesn't grab them from the internet.

If this is about managing rights and eliminating fair use, they are going to lose way more money from people tired of putting up with this bullshit than they will from people using their content too liberally.
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Post by Veggita2099 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:56 pm

butters wrote:
FiendWithoutAface wrote:
Veggita2099 wrote:Anymore I think Copy protection hurts people who want to actually legitly buy something more then it does the bootleggers. Seriously I have had to fight with Microsoft every since I got XP (and im sure Vista if I should ever upgrade) over changing computer parts out. Yet all those years I used unfavorable copies of previous OS's I never had any problems.

I just don't understand why these companies are so concerned with this. I mean I could understand if profits was actually falling because of pirating but they are not. I mean Bill Gates for example is probably one of the richest men in the world yet look at the BS we have to put up with on the 360 and his OS's because of copyright crap. In fact in my case its costing Bill Gates money because ID be downloading the crap out of HD CSI episodes if they didn't lock out external hard drives. But because I only get 20 gigs of room to work with I can't.


Same thing with Sony, while there PS3 isn't doing so hot they are hardly going bankrupt or anything. Studies have been done and pretty much showed that 90% of the people who download pirated stuff generally would have never actually bought it anyways. ITs foolish to screw your 99% of the world paying customers over the 1% that might actually download something without paying.

As stated this is Sony though.
"I mean Bill Gates for example is probably one of the richest men in the world yet look at the BS we have to put up with on the 360 and his OS's because of copyright crap"

You don't have to put up with it. Just don't buy his products. The moment MS's bullshit got too thick, I dropped em like a bad habit.
Which works just great until [alternative to Windows] doesn't do something you want it to and you end up going back to Windows for that purpose.
Pretty much. Too many things I do with my PC that won't work with other OS systems.
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Post by Lartrak » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:24 pm

On a somewhat related note... Forced control on DVDs was mentioned above. That is, where you can't fast forward or skip through something on disc. I rented a movie once that had 10 minutes of unskippable trailers once. The worst was when in the middle of the movie I accidentally ejected the disc (I had to stop it for a while, and hitting stop for too long on my cheapy player I use in the basement ejects the disc).

I've heard certain higher end DVD players let you fastforward/skip ANYTHING (and, I would assume, certain Chinese knockoffs). Anyone know if this is true?
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Post by DaMadFiddler » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:00 pm

Lartrak wrote:On a somewhat related note... Forced control on DVDs was mentioned above. That is, where you can't fast forward or skip through something on disc. I rented a movie once that had 10 minutes of unskippable trailers once. The worst was when in the middle of the movie I accidentally ejected the disc (I had to stop it for a while, and hitting stop for too long on my cheapy player I use in the basement ejects the disc).

I've heard certain higher end DVD players let you fastforward/skip ANYTHING (and, I would assume, certain Chinese knockoffs). Anyone know if this is true?
That's controlled by a software marker that tells the player not to allow certain commands at a given point, much like the proposed "broadcast flag" for crippling DVRs.

Many unlicensed and cheap import players don't bother including the operational code that would allow their firmware to recognize these markers, so everything is always enabled.
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Post by Quzar » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:33 pm

This copy protection also stops your run of the mill rent-and-burn person who just uses a one click tool to make copies. My mom rented this movie and was unable to make a copy with whatever program it was she was using (asked me for help) so she ended up just not copying it. Not a huge deal, as she uses Blockbuster's membership rental deal which gives basically unlimited rentals for a monthly fee, so we end up renting the same thing multiple times when this happens (if it comes up).

That's the other kind of piracy it's stopping, and I'm willing to bet that kind of person makes up a large portion of pirated copies (in countries where piracy isn't like 90% and you can go to local shops to buy professional looking piracy).

It kind of reminds me of the early DVD days when my mom would rent DVDs and copy them to VHS =P. Whenever there was a random disc with macrovision, it wasn't copied. Harmful to legitamate users? Yes. Stops personal pirates? Often. Stops high level/pro pirates? No.

I'm not saying it's right, I think it's totally wrong, but it is effective at stopping or at least hindering certain types of piracy.
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Post by |darc| » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:47 pm

Quzar wrote:This copy protection also stops your run of the mill rent-and-burn person who just uses a one click tool to make copies. My mom rented this movie and was unable to make a copy with whatever program it was she was using (asked me for help) so she ended up just not copying it. Not a huge deal, as she uses Blockbuster's membership rental deal which gives basically unlimited rentals for a monthly fee, so we end up renting the same thing multiple times when this happens (if it comes up).

That's the other kind of piracy it's stopping, and I'm willing to bet that kind of person makes up a large portion of pirated copies (in countries where piracy isn't like 90% and you can go to local shops to buy professional looking piracy).

It kind of reminds me of the early DVD days when my mom would rent DVDs and copy them to VHS =P. Whenever there was a random disc with macrovision, it wasn't copied. Harmful to legitamate users? Yes. Stops personal pirates? Often. Stops high level/pro pirates? No.

I'm not saying it's right, I think it's totally wrong, but it is effective at stopping or at least hindering certain types of piracy.
But how many people like that are there? I don't know many people who pirate DVDs only on a personal level. It's outrageously rampant when it comes to CDs, obviously, but not DVDs. At least not here.
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Post by Specially Cork » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:49 pm

VLC (VideoLAN) skips straight to the main menu on every DVD I have ever tried with it which is great. I can finally play all my Korean and Chinese stuff without endless streams of promos.
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Post by Covar » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:57 pm

i don't think i've ever seen a preview that i couldn't skip. sure i couldn't hit the menu button and go right there, but i could always just hit next chapter.
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Post by Quzar » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:00 pm

|darc| wrote:
Quzar wrote:This copy protection also stops your run of the mill rent-and-burn person who just uses a one click tool to make copies. My mom rented this movie and was unable to make a copy with whatever program it was she was using (asked me for help) so she ended up just not copying it. Not a huge deal, as she uses Blockbuster's membership rental deal which gives basically unlimited rentals for a monthly fee, so we end up renting the same thing multiple times when this happens (if it comes up).

That's the other kind of piracy it's stopping, and I'm willing to bet that kind of person makes up a large portion of pirated copies (in countries where piracy isn't like 90% and you can go to local shops to buy professional looking piracy).

It kind of reminds me of the early DVD days when my mom would rent DVDs and copy them to VHS =P. Whenever there was a random disc with macrovision, it wasn't copied. Harmful to legitamate users? Yes. Stops personal pirates? Often. Stops high level/pro pirates? No.

I'm not saying it's right, I think it's totally wrong, but it is effective at stopping or at least hindering certain types of piracy.
But how many people like that are there? I don't know many people who pirate DVDs only on a personal level. It's outrageously rampant when it comes to CDs, obviously, but not DVDs. At least not here.
Everyone I know who has blockbuster or netflix mail in DVD services copies most of the movies they get through it if they liked them (something like 5 or 6 people).
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Post by Lartrak » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:09 pm

|darc| wrote:
Quzar wrote:This copy protection also stops your run of the mill rent-and-burn person who just uses a one click tool to make copies. My mom rented this movie and was unable to make a copy with whatever program it was she was using (asked me for help) so she ended up just not copying it. Not a huge deal, as she uses Blockbuster's membership rental deal which gives basically unlimited rentals for a monthly fee, so we end up renting the same thing multiple times when this happens (if it comes up).

That's the other kind of piracy it's stopping, and I'm willing to bet that kind of person makes up a large portion of pirated copies (in countries where piracy isn't like 90% and you can go to local shops to buy professional looking piracy).

It kind of reminds me of the early DVD days when my mom would rent DVDs and copy them to VHS =P. Whenever there was a random disc with macrovision, it wasn't copied. Harmful to legitamate users? Yes. Stops personal pirates? Often. Stops high level/pro pirates? No.

I'm not saying it's right, I think it's totally wrong, but it is effective at stopping or at least hindering certain types of piracy.
But how many people like that are there? I don't know many people who pirate DVDs only on a personal level. It's outrageously rampant when it comes to CDs, obviously, but not DVDs. At least not here.
It's fairly common. I know people who do it exclusively, actually, which bothers me. I should hardly be one to be looking down on others when it comes to the morality of copyright violation, considering my history, but i actually do buy almost entirely legitimate movies and do very little copying. People who flagrantly violate copyright all the time and don't give film makers any support do bother me. Same with game pirates, for that matter.
i don't think i've ever seen a preview that i couldn't skip. sure i couldn't hit the menu button and go right there, but i could always just hit next chapter.
Very few major studio releases do it, actually. It's mostly smaller labels.
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Post by Zealous zerotype » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:07 pm

I think my player allows skipping through everything as I have never encountered this problem. It also come sout of the box region 0 and has auto PAL>NTSC support. I'm just assuming from those two things that it disregards that stuff. I just see DVDs hendering the user who buys them legitly so it almost leads me to. What is the point in even buying them if a pirated copy is going to be better anyways?
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Post by Specially Cork » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:09 pm

Very few major studio releases do it, actually. It's mostly smaller labels.
Yeah, thats why I mentioned my Asian DVDs. I import a lot of movies from Korea, China etc. and a lot of them come with 5+ mins of unskippable crap. The problem is movies over there are usually funded by a whole array of different companies, quite a few of them as "sponsors" rather than "investors", so you end up with promo junk on the discs.

On western DVDs the "you wouldn't steal a car..." crap is unskippable on all my hardware DVD players.
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