Law Expands Right to Kill in Self-Defense

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Law Expands Right to Kill in Self-Defense

Post by hearld500 » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:07 pm

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (Reuters) - People in Florida will be allowed to kill in self-defense on the street without trying to flee under a new law passed by state politicians on Tuesday that critics say will bring a Wild West mentality and innocent deaths.

The Florida House of Representatives, citing the need to allow people to "stand their ground," voted 94-20 to codify and expand court rulings that already allow people to use deadly force to protect themselves in their homes without first trying to escape.

The new bill goes further by allowing citizens to use deadly force in a public place if they have a reasonable belief they are in danger of death or great bodily harm. It applies to all means of force that may result in death, although the legislative debate focused on guns.

The "Stand Your Ground" bill passed the Senate last week on a 39-0 vote and now goes to Republican Gov. Jeb Bush, who indicated he will sign it.

"This is about meeting force with force," said House sponsor Republican state Rep. Dennis Baxley of Ocala. "If I'm attacked, I should not have to retreat."

Critics have few objections to allowing people to protect themselves from intruders in their homes but said the provision making it easier to use deadly force in public gives gun owners a license to kill.

"For a House that talks about the culture of life it's ironic that we would be devaluing life in this bill," said Democratic state Rep. Dan Gelber of Miami Beach. "That's exactly what we're doing."

Like many states, Florida courts have ruled that people have a right to defend themselves in their homes. Florida courts have expanded that "Castle Doctrine" to include employees in their workplaces and drivers who are attacked in their automobiles.

Outside the home, however, courts have ruled that most victims must at least attempt to escape before using deadly force, a provision gun advocates say puts victims at greater risk. The proposal removes that requirement if a person has a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.

Critics say the measure could lead to racially motivated killings and promote deadly escalations of arguments.

"All this bill will do is sell more guns and possibly turn Florida into the OK Corral," said Democratic state Rep. Irv Slosberg of Boca Raton.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... florida_dc
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Post by OneThirty8 » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:11 pm

<Note to self: Stay in NY.>
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Post by ETR » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:18 pm

OneThirty8 wrote:<Note to self: Stay in NY.>
<Note To Self: At least Ohio's concealed carry makes sense.>
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Post by Zealous zerotype » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:40 pm

Well I can understand in your home like if some one is breaking in kill his ass, but like on the streets. I unno seems it might be taken a liiitle advantage of.
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Post by DaMadFiddler » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:44 pm

...Wouldn't this mean, then, that (theoretically) someone could stand in the middle of the street and shoot oncoming drivers?

I'm curious as to the details of this legislation; if this is as loosly-constructed and ill-conceived as that article leads me to believe, it would not be hard at all for a few crafty people to find hundreds of ways to exploit loopholes in the new legislation for their own means.

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Post by lackofsense » Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:30 pm

aye and now my present situation...... um........
I might need to do something but i don't know what
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Post by OneThirty8 » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:42 pm

DaMadFiddler wrote:...Wouldn't this mean, then, that (theoretically) someone could stand in the middle of the street and shoot oncoming drivers?
Good point. I doubt that a person could get away with that if they were just standing in traffic, but I wouldn't be surprised if some idiot tried it. What I'd be most concerned about would be idiots walking around with guns. There are a couple of scenarios I can see playing out without much difficulty:

1) Somebody is walking down the street, minding their own business, and out of nowhere some dude runs up, snatches their 9mm, and either shoot somebody right away, or waits a while and shoots somebody.

2) Somebody is out in public, and some dude is waving a knife at him. The victim whips out a pistol, shoots 975 times, hitting the assailant once. The other 974 bullets go all over the place, killing and/or injuring innocent people.
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Post by hearld500 » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:53 pm

Problem with #2.

It's highly unlikely that someone would carry more then one clip with them.
(<10 bullets)
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Post by Tyne » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:55 pm

I will go to Florida and look at people, I will then shout "WE'RE UNDER ATTACK!" and shoot them, like in South Park!
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Post by OneThirty8 » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:02 pm

hearld500 wrote:Problem with #2.

It's highly unlikely that someone would carry more then one clip with them.
(<10 bullets)
Standard Disclaimer wrote:Numbers cited by OneThirty8 in hypothetical situations should not be taken literally.
So, you've still got 5 stray bullets. That's too many.
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Post by hearld500 » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:28 pm

OneThirty8 wrote:
Standard Disclaimer wrote:Numbers cited by OneThirty8 in hypothetical situations should not be taken literally.
So, you've still got 5 stray bullets. That's too many.
:lol: Yeah, I know you were kidding.

But still, the likelyhood of someone getting hit by a stray bullet is very very small. On top of that, people arn't exactly going to be shooting at each other everyday either.
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Post by Lartrak » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:02 am

...I'm not sure what the problem here is. I think it is perfectly reasonable to be legally allowed to kill people who are trying to kill you. That's what this law does. Are there people here who really think it is reasonable to require citizens to attempt to run away when someone attacks them, rather than defending themselves immediately?
if this is as loosly-constructed and ill-conceived as that article leads me to believe
The article is pretty vague, and I do agree it could be bad if it was poorly written. I do know that the previous bill which was specifically for home/vehicle defense was pretty well worded. It made mention of something like "willfull intent" type of wording, meaning if you deliberately put yourself in danger the bill didn't apply.

http://www.flsenate.gov/data/session/20 ... 191782.pdf

There's the bill. Seems solid, though it should also be remembered it is an amendment to existing law.
TheBill wrote:(3) A person who is attacked in any other place where
17 he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the
18 right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force,
19 including deadly force, if it is reasonably necessary to do so
20 to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or
21 another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
The "any other place" is there because above that there are additional details for people in their homes/vehicles. Basically, if someone attacks you (sorry, I don't think stepping in the line of traffic counts as an "attack") in a place where you have the right to be, you can respond in kind. I don't see a problem. This is an alteration of stupid existing laws, where you (generally) had to try to flee first before defending yourself.
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Post by OneThirty8 » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:07 am

hearld500 wrote:
OneThirty8 wrote:
Standard Disclaimer wrote:Numbers cited by OneThirty8 in hypothetical situations should not be taken literally.
So, you've still got 5 stray bullets. That's too many.
:lol: Yeah, I know you were kidding.

But still, the likelyhood of someone getting hit by a stray bullet is very very small. On top of that, people arn't exactly going to be shooting at each other everyday either.
Out in public, it really depends on where. If you're in a small town at dinner time and everyone is inside, it's less likely that a stray bullet will hit somebody than in a city where there are people going about their business 24 hours a day. Really, I think the self-defense should be considered when deciding if somebody committed a crime or not, and you'd be a fool not to defend yourself if you had to. I just don't think we need to make it too easy to find loopholes or ways to justify violent acts in public. If you can get away, then you should just do that.
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Post by Ex-Cyber » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:47 am

Maybe I give people too much credit, but I think the prospect of multiple charges of property damage and/or assault with a deadly weapon and/or wrongful death / manslaughter (and/or whatever other charge(s) might be appropriate) would get most people to think twice about emptying a clip in semi-random directions.
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Post by Jeeba Jabba » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:49 pm

You all sound like a pack of babbling vaginas. Guns are cool. Get over it.
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Post by Hawq » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:54 pm

Vigilantie licienses all round! :lol:
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Post by Sir Savant » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:01 pm

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Post by TreyDay » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:01 pm

King Jeeba wrote:You all sound like a pack of babbling vaginas. Guns are cool. Get over it.
stop taking my steez. biatch.
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Post by Jeeba Jabba » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:37 pm

TreyDay wrote:
King Jeeba wrote:You all sound like a pack of babbling vaginas. Guns are cool. Get over it.
stop taking my steez. biatch.

Are you gay?
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Post by that_guy » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:09 pm

hearld500 wrote:
OneThirty8 wrote:
Standard Disclaimer wrote:Numbers cited by OneThirty8 in hypothetical situations should not be taken literally.
So, you've still got 5 stray bullets. That's too many.
:lol: Yeah, I know you were kidding.

But still, the likelyhood of someone getting hit by a stray bullet is very very small. On top of that, people arn't exactly going to be shooting at each other everyday either.
A 4 year old kid got shot with a stray bullet in Victoria when 2 gangs were having a gun fight in the middle of the road. Very very small? Where exactly do you live? People get shot with strays a lot, this utpoia you live in isn't the real world. This 4 year olds case isn't the only one that has happened either; stray bullets kill a lot more people than you might realize, halfway because the shooters don't know how to shoot a handgun.
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