As I dont remember

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Post by Christuserloeser »

melancholy wrote:If I would put cocaine in a pixie stick wrapper, it doesn't make the cocaine legal. Sure the wrapper implies candy, but the core is still the main problem.
What I was referring to is that using Sonic could be called 'illegal' - as 'illegal' as BoR - where the WinCE libs actually are legal from what I've read:

http://www.dcemulation.org/phpBB/viewto ... 2&start=60
Darksaviour69 wrote:ron really thinks that is legal, and posted a load of links here
http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31893
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Post by melancholy »

Christuserloeser wrote:What I was referring to is that using Sonic could be called 'illegal' - as 'illegal' as BoR
Ah. Yes, that would be a good counterpoint.
Last edited by melancholy on Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Quzar »

Christuserloeser wrote:
melancholy wrote:If I would put cocaine in a pixie stick wrapper, it doesn't make the cocaine legal. Sure the wrapper implies candy, but the core is still the main problem.
What I was referring to is that using Sonic could be called 'illegal' - as 'illegal' as BoR - where the WinCE libs actually are legal from what I've read:

http://www.dcemulation.org/phpBB/viewto ... 2&start=60
Darksaviour69 wrote:ron really thinks that is legal, and posted a load of links here
http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31893
The WinCE libs are NOT legal. If so, they would have been released with the libs for other platforms.
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Re:

Post by Vash*The*Stampede »

melancholy wrote:This has nothing to do with what the content is. Yeah, we get it, it's Sonic, that's awesome. But it's illegal. If I would put cocaine in a pixie stick wrapper, it doesn't make the cocaine legal. Sure the wrapper implies candy, but the core is still the main problem.
First off... That doesn't even make sense. A stupid analogy, really. Once again; The WinCE libs are LEGAL... making your argument null statements, in fact. Wrapping cocaine in something has absolutely nothing to do with a DC homebrew engine that uses libs that no one couldn't care less about. People actually CARE about getting rid of cocaine.

This topic of 'legal'ness is getting REDICULOUSLY out of hand. No true DC community can be considered 'for the future of the system' without truely understanding there WILL be grey areas... You have to grasp this concept and forge forward regardless of quote 'legal' standpoints. Otherwise, your just being a hypocrite and will do anything BUT bring good fortune to the Dreamcast.

Wouldn't ripping Sonic sprites, levels, etc. also be considered a grey area for being 'illegal'?? Get over it already. Either stop blindly following a belief because of quote 'a law' that SEGA/Microsoft would NEVER notice (have you heard of ANYONE going to jail because of anything Dreamcast??) or just stop talking about it in general. You're bad mouthing a man's hard work that BENEFITS the community, that he does for FREE and asks nothing in return. Doing considerably more help to the community then most of the nay-sayers.
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Re: As I dont remember

Post by emptythought »

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Re: Re:

Post by Quzar »

Vash*The*Stampede wrote:
melancholy wrote:This has nothing to do with what the content is. Yeah, we get it, it's Sonic, that's awesome. But it's illegal. If I would put cocaine in a pixie stick wrapper, it doesn't make the cocaine legal. Sure the wrapper implies candy, but the core is still the main problem.
First off... That doesn't even make sense. A stupid analogy, really. Once again; The WinCE libs are LEGAL... making your argument null statements, in fact. Wrapping cocaine in something has absolutely nothing to do with a DC homebrew engine that uses libs that no one couldn't care less about. People actually CARE about getting rid of cocaine.
It is not legal to redistribute the Dreamcast WinCE libs without a license to do so. The analogy is a great one because it ties to the single argument most being used for the WinCE libs being ok to distribute "if we don't get in trouble, it's not wrong".
This topic of 'legal'ness is getting REDICULOUSLY out of hand. No true DC community can be considered 'for the future of the system' without truely understanding there WILL be grey areas... You have to grasp this concept and forge forward regardless of quote 'legal' standpoints. Otherwise, your just being a hypocrite and will do anything BUT bring good fortune to the Dreamcast.
You don't understand that the single best way to keep the community afloat will be to stay 100% legal. We are one of the few communities that very specifically on many sites segregates between legal and illegal homebrew/emulation/etc topics. Also, I think that anyone who will not actually be contributing in any way should have no place to even make a statement such as that. If you WERE writing something for the DC using the WinCE libs, then yes, that would be a great point to make, otherwise you're just another person looking for more free stuff. What you don't realize is that if anyone wanted to do stuff with the WinCE libs, they just... do it. They host the results themselves or get a less discriminating site to host it.
Wouldn't ripping Sonic sprites, levels, etc. also be considered a grey area for being 'illegal'?? Get over it already. Either stop blindly following a belief because of quote 'a law' that SEGA/Microsoft would NEVER notice (have you heard of ANYONE going to jail because of anything Dreamcast??) or just stop talking about it in general. You're bad mouthing a man's hard work that BENEFITS the community, that he does for FREE and asks nothing in return. Doing considerably more help to the community then most of the nay-sayers.
Ripping them directly from the game would be straight up illegal, no grey area or nothing. Creating sprites that look similar to those in a game for a non-commercial product is arguable, as some may say that it would be protected work, and would require legal action to show otherwise.
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Re: As I dont remember

Post by Vash*The*Stampede »

Great example of someone who's TOO full of himself; 'if you don't make emulators you don't have a say in it'. Bullshit, Quzar. You didn't make RS either so you can STFU, as well. Or just get your head out of your ass. This also works wonders for the DC scene.
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Re: As I dont remember

Post by Quzar »

Vash*The*Stampede wrote:Great example of someone who's TOO full of himself; 'if you don't make emulators you don't have a say in it'. Bullshit, Quzar. You didn't make RS either so you can STFU, as well. Or just get your head out of your ass. This also works wonders for the DC scene.
You were making a blanket statement about the "future of the DC scene" and the need for people to be able to use WinCE if "we" are going to survive. Of course, you would renig on that once it opens up a chance for you to try to fabricate a leg for yourself to stand on.
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Re: Re:

Post by Sir Savant »

Quzar wrote:
Vash*The*Stampede wrote:Wouldn't ripping Sonic sprites, levels, etc. also be considered a grey area for being 'illegal'?? Get over it already. Either stop blindly following a belief because of quote 'a law' that SEGA/Microsoft would NEVER notice (have you heard of ANYONE going to jail because of anything Dreamcast??) or just stop talking about it in general. You're bad mouthing a man's hard work that BENEFITS the community, that he does for FREE and asks nothing in return. Doing considerably more help to the community then most of the nay-sayers.
Ripping them directly from the game would be straight up illegal, no grey area or nothing. Creating sprites that look similar to those in a game for a non-commercial product is arguable, as some may say that it would be protected work, and would require legal action to show otherwise.
Isn't there legal precedence with M.U.G.E.N.? I believe that if Sega wanted to protect the Sonic trademark or whatever, they would have had to stop all characters based on Sonic, or make a good-faith attempt at doing so. In fact, I think the stance on most rips of characters is that they are doing Fan Art.

IANAL.
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Re: Re:

Post by Quzar »

Sir Savant wrote:
Quzar wrote:
Vash*The*Stampede wrote:Wouldn't ripping Sonic sprites, levels, etc. also be considered a grey area for being 'illegal'?? Get over it already. Either stop blindly following a belief because of quote 'a law' that SEGA/Microsoft would NEVER notice (have you heard of ANYONE going to jail because of anything Dreamcast??) or just stop talking about it in general. You're bad mouthing a man's hard work that BENEFITS the community, that he does for FREE and asks nothing in return. Doing considerably more help to the community then most of the nay-sayers.
Ripping them directly from the game would be straight up illegal, no grey area or nothing. Creating sprites that look similar to those in a game for a non-commercial product is arguable, as some may say that it would be protected work, and would require legal action to show otherwise.
Isn't there legal precedence with M.U.G.E.N.? I believe that if Sega wanted to protect the Sonic trademark or whatever, they would have had to stop all characters based on Sonic, or make a good-faith attempt at doing so. In fact, I think the stance on most rips of characters is that they are doing Fan Art.

IANAL.
Most all of the MUGEN things are illegal. But the owners of the original copyrights have little to gain from going after people for it. The cost of the lawyers to do anything would outweigh the benefits. There is no direct competition with their own software, so they just don't care much.

It's like....j-walking (or some other such small crime) where at some times/places/with some companies it is strictly enforced, and at others it's completely ignored.
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Re: Re:

Post by Sir Savant »

Quzar wrote:
Sir Savant wrote:
Quzar wrote:
Vash*The*Stampede wrote:Wouldn't ripping Sonic sprites, levels, etc. also be considered a grey area for being 'illegal'?? Get over it already. Either stop blindly following a belief because of quote 'a law' that SEGA/Microsoft would NEVER notice (have you heard of ANYONE going to jail because of anything Dreamcast??) or just stop talking about it in general. You're bad mouthing a man's hard work that BENEFITS the community, that he does for FREE and asks nothing in return. Doing considerably more help to the community then most of the nay-sayers.
Ripping them directly from the game would be straight up illegal, no grey area or nothing. Creating sprites that look similar to those in a game for a non-commercial product is arguable, as some may say that it would be protected work, and would require legal action to show otherwise.
Isn't there legal precedence with M.U.G.E.N.? I believe that if Sega wanted to protect the Sonic trademark or whatever, they would have had to stop all characters based on Sonic, or make a good-faith attempt at doing so. In fact, I think the stance on most rips of characters is that they are doing Fan Art.

IANAL.
Most all of the MUGEN things are illegal. But the owners of the original copyrights have little to gain from going after people for it. The cost of the lawyers to do anything would outweigh the benefits. There is no direct competition with their own software, so they just don't care much.

It's like....j-walking (or some other such small crime) where at some times/places/with some companies it is strictly enforced, and at others it's completely ignored.
Isn't there some legal spiel that says that if you don't make a reasonable effort to protect your IP, you lose control over it? I remember reading about it and Xerox once, but don't remember the exact outcome. Would that not apply here as well?
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Re: Re:

Post by BlackAura »

Sir Savant wrote:Isn't there some legal spiel that says that if you don't make a reasonable effort to protect your IP, you lose control over it? I remember reading about it and Xerox once, but don't remember the exact outcome. Would that not apply here as well?
No.

For copyright (which would apply to things like ripped sprites, music, libraries of code, operating systems, software, or almost anything that's an expression of an idea), all work is automatically protected. That protection can not be lost unless it is waived by the original author (in which case, it becomes public domain). This would specifically apply to copied artwork (sprites, tile data), derived works (such as level designs based on original ones), and to the code of the Windows CE libraries. Remember also that copyright only covers distribution (in other words, the right to copy).

For patents (which don't apply here), there is no requirement to enforce them. You could even, for example, force Microsoft to purchase a license for a patent, but let everyone else use it for free (see the Eolas patent case against Microsoft over Internet Explorer's use of plugins).

For trademarks, which may apply if you're making a game based around, for example, Sonic, it is possible to lose protection by allowing others to infringe upon the trademark. However, this really only applies to commercial trademark infringement. There's no requirement to police the entire planet, and threaten everyone who uses your trademark in any way with legal action. Even then, you don't automatically lose protection. It just makes it much harder to prosecute someone later, because they can cite instances where you allowed it as precedent.
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Re: Re:

Post by Sir Savant »

BlackAura wrote:
Sir Savant wrote:Isn't there some legal spiel that says that if you don't make a reasonable effort to protect your IP, you lose control over it? I remember reading about it and Xerox once, but don't remember the exact outcome. Would that not apply here as well?
No.

For copyright (which would apply to things like ripped sprites, music, libraries of code, operating systems, software, or almost anything that's an expression of an idea), all work is automatically protected. That protection can not be lost unless it is waived by the original author (in which case, it becomes public domain). This would specifically apply to copied artwork (sprites, tile data), derived works (such as level designs based on original ones), and to the code of the Windows CE libraries. Remember also that copyright only covers distribution (in other words, the right to copy).

For patents (which don't apply here), there is no requirement to enforce them. You could even, for example, force Microsoft to purchase a license for a patent, but let everyone else use it for free (see the Eolas patent case against Microsoft over Internet Explorer's use of plugins).

For trademarks, which may apply if you're making a game based around, for example, Sonic, it is possible to lose protection by allowing others to infringe upon the trademark. However, this really only applies to commercial trademark infringement. There's no requirement to police the entire planet, and threaten everyone who uses your trademark in any way with legal action. Even then, you don't automatically lose protection. It just makes it much harder to prosecute someone later, because they can cite instances where you allowed it as precedent.
I bow down before you and your eloquently worded posts. I swear, I learn something new everytime.

/me backs out of thread for now
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