Some *bad* things about NesterDC SE that should be addressed

This forum is for discussion pertaining to homebrew and indie software for the Dreamcast, such as homebrew games, emulators/interpreters, and other homebrew software/applications. Porting requests and developmental ideas are not to be made here; you can make those here. If you need any help burning discs for homebrew software, this is the place to ask as well.
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Post by Jiro » Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:09 am

Captain Skyhawk wrote:I really don't understand that people do like NesterDC S.E., but not the way it needs to be created.
Because creating it this way has a cost. It makes it a major pain to create on a Linux system (I do dual boot with Windows, but it's Win 98, so that's no help, and I don't have a CD burning program for Windows anyway). It makes it a pain for a dialup user. It makes it harder to maintain, even for the programmer (the extra work for Scherzo to create a Linux CD builder--which may not be for a long while--would be totally unnecessary if it didn't depend on a CD builder in the first place.) And what happens if in a couple of years Scherzo's site goes down? Nobody will be able to build a new CD.

Not to mention the privacy problems in having Scherzo potentially know exactly what ROMs you have. (I have nothing against him in particular, but trusting anyone on the Internet with this kind of information is a bad idea. What if tomorrow Nintendo uses the threat of a lawsuit to force him to keep a list of ROMs and IP addresses?)

People use portable formats for a reason. Getting rid of them and forcing everyone to use an XP-only, Internet-only program that is likely to die at some time in the future is a *bad* idea. It's bad enough that big companies are doing this sort of thing to the users in the name of profits and marketing (see the controversy over Steam and Half-Life 2), but why should an emulator, where there's no profit and no marketing, do it too?

Being easy to build and run is really a feature too. And this release has removed that feature, as surely as removing save states or compatibility would be removing a feature.
now we can make NesterDC S.E. perfect, Scherzo's excellent programming techniques provided us with all the tools for doing so.
This isn't true. One such tool is source code. That hasn't been released. (Which incidentally violates Nester's GPL license unless Scherzo has special permission from the original authors--the GPL doesn't let you say the source code is "coming soon".)
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Post by law56ker » Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:01 am

Jiro wrote:
Captain Skyhawk wrote:I really don't understand that people do like NesterDC S.E., but not the way it needs to be created.
Because creating it this way has a cost. It makes it a major pain to create on a Linux system (I do dual boot with Windows, but it's Win 98, so that's no help, and I don't have a CD burning program for Windows anyway). It makes it a pain for a dialup user. It makes it harder to maintain, even for the programmer (the extra work for Scherzo to create a Linux CD builder--which may not be for a long while--would be totally unnecessary if it didn't depend on a CD builder in the first place.) And what happens if in a couple of years Scherzo's site goes down? Nobody will be able to build a new CD.

Not to mention the privacy problems in having Scherzo potentially know exactly what ROMs you have. (I have nothing against him in particular, but trusting anyone on the Internet with this kind of information is a bad idea. What if tomorrow Nintendo uses the threat of a lawsuit to force him to keep a list of ROMs and IP addresses?)

People use portable formats for a reason. Getting rid of them and forcing everyone to use an XP-only, Internet-only program that is likely to die at some time in the future is a *bad* idea. It's bad enough that big companies are doing this sort of thing to the users in the name of profits and marketing (see the controversy over Steam and Half-Life 2), but why should an emulator, where there's no profit and no marketing, do it too?

Being easy to build and run is really a feature too. And this release has removed that feature, as surely as removing save states or compatibility would be removing a feature.
now we can make NesterDC S.E. perfect, Scherzo's excellent programming techniques provided us with all the tools for doing so.
This isn't true. One such tool is source code. That hasn't been released. (Which incidentally violates Nester's GPL license unless Scherzo has special permission from the original authors--the GPL doesn't let you say the source code is "coming soon".)
There's always person like you that has to come in here and spoil the mood for everyone.
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Post by Quzar » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:23 am

The cdbuilder is written in java and the linux and mac flavors are on their way. Not releasing the source code is obviously an oversight.
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Post by Strapping Scherzo » Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:58 am

Quzar wrote:The cdbuilder is written in java and the linux and mac flavors are on their way. Not releasing the source code is obviously an oversight.
Actually the CD Builder is written in C++ but using a library called WxWdigets that should make porting to other systems a piece of cake (knock on wood).

The dude who posted above is right. I'm packaging up the all source code now, even my tweaked KOS tree. I shouldn't have been lazy and just posted it with the release.

And just so you all know. NO, I'm not collecting any information about you guys when you download content from my site.

And, Jiro, if you don't like SE then don't use it. No one can make everyone happy. And not to sound like an ass, but the person I was most concerned about in making SE was me. You know. I released this and I'm glad lots of people seem to be very pleased with it overall, but when it comes down to it... I did it for me.

The source should be up in about 15 mins........... I'll make a new thread when it is.
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Post by Jiro » Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:43 am

And, Jiro, if you don't like SE then don't use it.
Umm, I'm running Linux dual booted with Win98. I *can't* use it.
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Post by retrogamer » Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:34 pm

Would it be possible to incorporate the cd builder in the PC & Mac versions without having to rely on your website to build the cd. If you could make all of the extras (screenshots, boxes, manuals, etc) available in the PC release then people could pick and choose what they want for their PC or Dreamcast for that matter without tying up your website plus it will be available for along time should the site be removed in the future for whatever reason.
Last edited by retrogamer on Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Quzar » Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:28 pm

Strapping Scherzo wrote:
Quzar wrote:The cdbuilder is written in java and the linux and mac flavors are on their way. Not releasing the source code is obviously an oversight.
Actually the CD Builder is written in C++ but using a library called WxWdigets that should make porting to other systems a piece of cake (knock on wood).

The dude who posted above is right. I'm packaging up the all source code now, even my tweaked KOS tree. I shouldn't have been lazy and just posted it with the release.

And just so you all know. NO, I'm not collecting any information about you guys when you download content from my site.

And, Jiro, if you don't like SE then don't use it. No one can make everyone happy. And not to sound like an ass, but the person I was most concerned about in making SE was me. You know. I released this and I'm glad lots of people seem to be very pleased with it overall, but when it comes down to it... I did it for me.

The source should be up in about 15 mins........... I'll make a new thread when it is.
Oh, i thought you had said it was in java. As for the kos modifications, you might want to note in the source that it is for pre-g2dma kos. Now they don't have spu_dma anymore, you have to pass parameters to be spu but it has what you changed (the callback linking) fixed already.
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Post by JS Lemming » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:41 pm

Jiro should be shot.
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Post by Quzar » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:53 pm

JS Lemming wrote:Jiro should be shot.
He brings up good and valid points. In theory scherzo could monitor your rom usage by using the cd builder, and it IS limited (for now) to XP, and is required to use it. What happens if scherzo decides to quit? It will pretty much be useless. ATM what we need to do is get a few other sites (looking at dcs and dcemu.co) to setup master_db mirrors, as are allowed by the builder program.
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Post by Jiro » Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:18 pm

Why bother with proxies? Just let the user download the whole set of supplementary materials and run the builder on his local system using the set.
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Post by Smurph » Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:34 pm

Jiro wrote:Why bother with proxies? Just let the user download the whole set of supplementary materials and run the builder on his local system using the set.
Torrent it. :wink: It saves scherzo's bandwidth.
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Post by curt_grymala » Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:02 pm

Quzar wrote:ATM what we need to do is get a few other sites (looking at dcs and dcemu.co) to setup master_db mirrors, as are allowed by the builder program.
I may be wrong (I'm pretty certain that I'm not, though), but I believe the DC Evo network would be more than willing to serve as a mirror for the content.

Scherzo - if you'd like us to set up a mirror over at DC Evo, please let me know.

It would also be nice, as Quzar suggested, to possibly allow people to download the whole thing if they want to, and possibly to set up a tutorial on how to build your own NesterDCSE image offline if you felt the need (what the menu files have to look like, what the whole directory structure is, etc.). As I said, I believe we would be more than willing to host all of that stuff at the DC Evo network if need be (if I'm wrong, I'm sure Skyhawk will come along and speak up - after all, he's the one that pays the bills over there ;) )
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Post by Sir Savant » Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:32 pm

I am sure most would happily torrent it, provided that there are a couple of seeders. :)

Also, expect an imminent (sp?) release of a new ski for NDCSE. It might not be pretty, but I am hoping to get some animation right and then we will be good to go.

If only I had not burnt out my router or at least had a coders cable, this would all be much easier...

Oh yeah, Scherzo, the cd builder is not all too friendly every so often. Perhaps there would be a way to get the master_db from somewhere else if your Server was flooded , ie alternate downloads like on source forge? Might be a nice way for mirrors to split the bandwidth. Have one mirror host manuals, one host the nsfs and screenshots, one hosts the master_db etc.
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Post by Cid Highwind » Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:01 pm

Jiro wrote:
Captain Skyhawk wrote:I really don't understand that people do like NesterDC S.E., but not the way it needs to be created.
Because creating it this way has a cost. It makes it a major pain to create on a Linux system (I do dual boot with Windows, but it's Win 98, so that's no help, and I don't have a CD burning program for Windows anyway). It makes it a pain for a dialup user. It makes it harder to maintain, even for the programmer (the extra work for Scherzo to create a Linux CD builder--which may not be for a long while--would be totally unnecessary if it didn't depend on a CD builder in the first place.) And what happens if in a couple of years Scherzo's site goes down? Nobody will be able to build a new CD.

Not to mention the privacy problems in having Scherzo potentially know exactly what ROMs you have. (I have nothing against him in particular, but trusting anyone on the Internet with this kind of information is a bad idea. What if tomorrow Nintendo uses the threat of a lawsuit to force him to keep a list of ROMs and IP addresses?)

People use portable formats for a reason. Getting rid of them and forcing everyone to use an XP-only, Internet-only program that is likely to die at some time in the future is a *bad* idea. It's bad enough that big companies are doing this sort of thing to the users in the name of profits and marketing (see the controversy over Steam and Half-Life 2), but why should an emulator, where there's no profit and no marketing, do it too?

Being easy to build and run is really a feature too. And this release has removed that feature, as surely as removing save states or compatibility would be removing a feature.
now we can make NesterDC S.E. perfect, Scherzo's excellent programming techniques provided us with all the tools for doing so.
This isn't true. One such tool is source code. That hasn't been released. (Which incidentally violates Nester's GPL license unless Scherzo has special permission from the original authors--the GPL doesn't let you say the source code is "coming soon".)
Even though you bring up some good points, others just aren't valid IMHO.

56k users should not complain, they can download the emulator and enjoy the speed and compatibility. If they want the goodies, which are EXTRAS, they have to look elswhere. There simply isn't a way to let them download the stuff themselves, but should that be our problem as well? If they don't have broadband, they're out of luck, end of discussion.

About the OS problem: Scherzo already made it possible for the most commonly used OS' to work with with program, he said he would look into the others later. Do you complain to M$ as well if you can't run Office 2003? At least scherzo isn't doing this to force you to upgrade, it was for his convienence and to be able to release it within the deadline ;)

Keep in mind, this program is a GIFT, we have the right to give feedback and support, not complaints. (and this goes out not only to you, but to anyone else)

Btw, I found an other small problem, maybe it would be a good idea to create a sticky for bugs only?

I just caught one in Probotector 2 (contra 2, PAL E version), I used the game genie code to have unlimited lifes, which comes from the official Game Genie book I still have here for more than 10 years, but it made the game crash :( Maybe someone else can check if they have the same game if the same thing occurs?
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Post by Dreamcast4life » Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:37 am

This emulator is the shit. I am sick of people complaining "OMG DO3ST PLUAY B33G BEAR N TEH "KNOW" GANG!" Its a great emulator and if you don't like how it plays or how it is, Get the source and make it better if you can. Scherzo worked hard on this emu for I talk to him and know he has worked his ass off. Appreciate it and enjoy it, its TRUE full speed,NO control lag and all out perfect. This is coming for a NES fan to the bone.

I can play hacks,Patched games and more. THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH IT AT ALL! The builder worked fine and so did the downloads for Scherzo's site. This emu gets a 100 % in my book so in the words of cartman : So Stop Your Bitchin'!
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NesterDC SE Sound Problems and .fds Games

Post by chantililace » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:30 am

gnomes wrote:why does the sound have so much interference while playing a game? the nsf player plays the sound perfectly but in the game there is always a harsh static noise in the background.

or a constant simple 1 tone sound effect constantly repeating itself.
I have this exact same problem. Did you find out what caused it? Funny thing is my buddy has the disc work just find in his dreamcast - no static. The Frames per second seem to lag a bit as well..

Also, how do you get Nester DC SE to see your .fds (famicom) roms that are mixed in with my .nes roms in the same folder ??

THANKS
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Post by gnomes » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:57 am

Nope, sorry I never figured it out. I didn't give much thought to it, I assumed it was a problem with the emulator.

It's if it is Dreamcast specific I don't know what it might be. It could have to do with the different types of lasers in different Dreamcasts, but that could also means everything from the CD it's burned on to the CD burner itself could cause the problem.
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Post by Vlame » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:29 am

Some menu music or moving backgrounds or something of the like, would be nice because my DC tends to freeze a lot and silence from a video game just feels weird,... Can I just make a rom disc, instead of making the emu all over again?
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Post by impact135 » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:46 pm

Great emu... but there are a few suggestions:

some games are not full screen as they are in nesterdc 7.1 .. i dont understand why the games are full screen in 7.1 but a few are not full screen in SE.. anyone else notice this?

Would it be possible to let us have multiple directories for our files? I dont have all my files on 1 directory.

Also.. would it be possible to let me see a list of at least 10-20 roms per page like nesterdc 7.1.. its really hard to scroll thru the roms when you have hundreds.

these are minor suggestions.. and for the most part the emu runs the games much better then 7.1 and some games that didnt work in 7.1 work in this one. :)

One more thing.. im on dial up and i dont want to have to connect to the net everytime i want to burn.. any chance of giving us an option not to?

Also... one LAST thing.. i dont like that it renames the roms.. any way to let me keep the name that my roms have already?
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