One more reason for a devver operated sales shop..

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One more reason for a devver operated sales shop..

Post by NightStalker »

http://www.dcemulation.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=65256


anyway i plan on emailing the guy and sending him some links to sellers of these applications.
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Post by skar »

yeah after all it's no good idea to sell discs with commercial roms... but offering a service of sending cds to people who don't have the possibility to burn them themselves would be some nice idea...
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Post by OneThirty8 »

I don't see what harm it would to if somebody were to charge cost + shipping for discs of emulators bundled with pd-roms, but I see two problems with that:
1) It could end up requiring a serious commitment of time for which there would be no material compensation.
2) People would want emus bundled with commercial roms, which we can't do.

That guy says he has no access to a burner, so it's not like we could just ship out discs of emulators without roms, because he's got no way of making a ROMS disc. At the risk of soundling like an elitist prick, which I admit to being at times, some people need to break open their piggy banks (or save their pennies if their piggy banks are empty) and enter the 21st Century if they want to enjoy the fun that those of us with reasonably modern computers enjoy, because while it would be easy for somebody to take pity and burn this stuff and mail it to the guy, the person would have to break copyright laws to give him what he wants. That would mean that none of the scene sites could support such activities. I've got a computer that's got to be about 5 or 6 years old, with the only additions of hardware being an ethernet card and a sound card for which there are working Linux drivers, (so, nothing that had an effect on my ability to burn CD's) and I can burn this stuff just fine on that PC using Windows or Linux. If I wanted to, I could burn this stuff on my Mac. Or, I could do it on my laptop, or my 'new' desktop PC. I know that not everybody personally owns four computers, but I own four bought over a span of quite a few years, and I'm a broke-ass college student. CD Burners are dirt cheap these days, so it's not even like you'd have to break the bank and spend hundreds of dollars.
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Post by NightStalker »

some very good points Onethirty8.


Im just suggesting a Emu/PD Rom combo disc...it beats nothing at all for these users.


And I believe it would be unrealistic to assume they wouldnt still hunt down the illegal roms.


Also discs for some of the absolutely legal apps/etc for dc like dclinux,etc.


And I wouldnt see one issue with the devvers actually making a buck off of the service.After all it's their work that made it possible to have these things on the dc.And if anyone deserves to make a buck it sure isnt the sellers vs the devvers.

And I know for a fact the end user wont care about a cost.Hell they are paying for the discs(with most likely illegal roms..i admit.)to sellers who had no part in the creation and work that went into them..and they are making a profit.So the buyer isnt gonna care if it actually goes to the creator vs. the illegal sellers..

It could curb SOME of the illegal trade..most likely not all..but atleast the devvers would get something for their work and might even be more motivated to make more stuff.Credit for your hard work only goes so far...


as for really being able to affrod a basic pc if ya really wanted to goes..well that is probably correct here in the united states.but from what i have observed from buyers of these dc apps/browsers/etc...most are from brazil.south america and central america has one of the largest current dc user bases.i can see how it might be difficult for users from these regions to afford even the most basic pc.it isnt like incomes are fantastic in these regions of the world.
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Post by Sir Savant »

I would do it, and prof label them. So no profit. I intend to with NesterDC SE, and I will send a couple of free copies in to Scherzo so he can judge them. I already discussed what I was going to do.

As for shipping, it would have to depend on wherever the user is. Otherwise there would have to be some kind of set price, and that would lead to profits. Unless Scherzo wont mind me getting a little something(otherwise he'd get the money). Sellers would only deserve profit if they created the labels (not downloaded, custom labels they personally make) and professionally cased the,.

Anyways, this would be an excellent market. As long as its all legal and the sellers get rights to sell at a price (variable to shipping) from devvers.

If we dont do it, they will just find someone else to do it. There are plenty of places to get burnt cds, and most places also have illegal stuff. So there needs to be some kind of service like this, otherwise this community wont be as pure as it aims to be (at least on the surface :twisted: ).
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Post by OneThirty8 »

NightStalker wrote: as for really being able to affrod a basic pc if ya really wanted to goes..well that is probably correct here in the united states.but from what i have observed from buyers of these dc apps/browsers/etc...most are from brazil.south america and central america has one of the largest current dc user bases.i can see how it might be difficult for users from these regions to afford even the most basic pc.it isnt like incomes are fantastic in these regions of the world.
I understand that a computer purchase might not be a drop in the bucket in some parts of the world. I was thinking mostly about people here in the states who have old computers without burners, or who have no computer at all. I have a hard time taking pity on most of them, because you can find a decent quality computer for next to nothing if you shop around. I think a lot of it is a matter of not wanting to be bothered to make the effort but, and getting somebody else to burn it for them. I think it's probably the most extreme type of 'freeloader' syndrome. (freeloader syndrome being most typically recognized by the phrase 'goddamnit, DreamSNES isn't perfect!' and similar.) That whole point I made earlier was for people here.

In other parts of the world, I understand that it might be hard to get a computer. Such a service would allow them to use this software, but they might be disappointed with only pd-roms. I understand that it can be frustrating and doesn't seem fair, but you really need a computer with a CD burner to do this stuff. Plus, for me it would have diminished the 'coolness factor' of my first working DreamSNES disc to have somebody else make it for me.
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Post by NightStalker »

If we dont do it, they will just find someone else to do it. There are plenty of places to get burnt cds, and most places also have illegal stuff. So there needs to be some kind of service like this, otherwise this community wont be as pure as it aims to be (at least on the surface ).

well i dont have a real leg to stand on when it comes to messing with legal/illegal software(see web browsers dc..)but i never sold em that's for sure,and did eventually help get some approval from sega/planetweb..more from planetweb.but sega has remained dormant on the issue.
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Post by Sir Savant »

Well, I cant see why people in "modern" countries dont have burners or pc's, unless they are dirt poor. In which case they would not have a DC anyways.

I myself can get a pc for 50 bucks (ebay) and jack in a 20 buck(ebay) cd burner, for a grand total of 70 bucks. Granted it wont be the next alienware, but for burning it would do.

If they got on the internet, either they have an original browser cd, or more common, they burnt a browser.
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Post by goatdan »

A few things to say:

First off, anyone can afford a CD burner, probably for the price that it would cost for someone to burn five CDs and ship them. I saw a DVD burner on clearance at the local office shop the other day for $40.00. I'm sure I could get an old CD burner for less than $20.00.

Secondly, who are we trying to kid? Why would any "consumer" out there buy an emulator with only legal, public domain ROMs on it? So I can get a disc with a grand total of ten games on it? Big deal. I could spent a little more money and get an illegal one off eBay with 500. If we're going to be honest, the reason emulators are popular is because you can play things you don't own on them.

As for the developers making a buck or two off it -- I'm fine with that, but that means the developers should be the ones making and distributing the games, not a third party that has no legal need to give them back money. Oh, you're selling a NES disc with PD ROMs on it? What is a fair price for them to make? For you to make? That's opening a whole new can of worms that no one but perhaps the developer should be doing.

Don't even try to argue that this will make the scene "pure." But offering this "service" (which quite frankly, the people purchasing illegal copies on eBay still aren't going to find these copies unless you start selling your "legal" copies on eBay, which makes you no better than them) isn't really a service at all. The people on these boards will know about it. That's it. Even if I couldn't afford a CD burner, I would have to be in pretty sad shape if I didn't know someone who could burn a CD for me. Personally, every person I know has a CD burner now.

People want a service that will track down the ROMs for them and put them on a disc, plain and simple. It allows them to avoid the legal repercussions of downloading the files themselves, while still allowing them to play the games. That is why there is such a market for these games on eBay.

If someone starts doing this "service," the Dreamcast scene as a whole will crumble. The Dreamcast underground scene works because they have never accepted anything that resembles anything illegal, and even if you're selling discs with only "legal" ROMs on it, you're toeing a very thing line. Once the scene becomes known as (or perceived as) publishing a bunch of illegal crap and supporting it, it's over. Expect all major future releases to come to a grinding stop. Expect support of major players in the Dreamcast scene to be pulled immediately. I for one wouldn't risk putting out a new DC release for $19.90 vs someone selling copies of Half Life on here for $5.00. And don't tell me that you aren't going to sell Half Life, because once we have five people making discs, you have to start having people get "ahead" of their competition by making new stuff, and suddenly you'l have people pulling totally illegal stuff.

On top of this, if this happens I will completely side with every company that issues cease and desist orders and attempts to sue over it. And there are some. Trust me, my experiences in this realm over the last few years means that I know that if anyone is goofy enough to try to release anything that is not fully legal, you will land yourself in court with no defense.

So anyway, if you still think it is a good idea I guess go for it. But expect that doing so will kill a dozen new full releases from us, will destroy the scene and will stop developers from getting a lot of the respect that they currently get from there work. I've already seen it happen in one scene I was involved with, and now that I know the warning signs (and especially since I have thousands of dollars invested in it), I'm ready to jump ship at any time. It's up to you guys to decide if you want to push me or not.
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Post by MetaFox »

You are overreacting here, Dan.

This suggestion is merely to keep the people that have no idea that there is a community that releases this stuff for free that buy it on eBay having no clue that it's not worth the $10s of dollars they spend on it.

It's not just emulators either. I've seen Beats of Rage on eBay plenty of times.

It's to keep the profiteerers on eBay from making profit on other people's work, since eBay does nothing themselves to get it removed - even when they're contacted.

eBay's piracy department is useless. If the complaint isn't filed by the big boys then they don't care, even if it's filed by the actual authors of the software.

It's a sorry state of affairs, and I fully support this idea if it's done so that the auction makes bidders aware that the discs can also be obtained for free by anyone with a computer and a CD burner.

The profiting by idiots on eBay selling Dreamcast software who have nothing to do with the software in question has got to stop, and eBay isn't any help. So, what better way to stop them than to let them know that the stuff they are selling is freeware and isn't as "RARE" as they lead people to believe than to start a auction for the item in question with links to where they can get it for free if they want to, or a low buy-it-now price to cover just eBay charges and the cost of the CD-R?
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Post by NightStalker »

I'm ready to jump ship at any time. It's up to you guys to decide if you want to push me or not.
no ones pushing you to go one way or the other.i havent suggested i was about to open any shop of any kind.i was suggesting that the devver's do it.but hey if ya wanna "jump ship"...i'll be more than happy to send you a plank.
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Post by goatdan »

MetaFox wrote:You are overreacting here, Dan.
No, actually I'm not. I understand all of the stuff about eBay. I understand the problems. But I also understand that the only reason the Dreamcast community is so strong and it has worked so well so far is because it has been united against things like this in the past. The mentality of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" does not work for doing things like this because as soon as someone does, it brings down the entire community to that level.

I, along with developers like Cryptic Allusion, S+F Software and JMD have busted our butts to make the Dreamcast community more legit. So far, we haven't made a dime from it, and yet we're still looking at spending more money to help the scene get noticed even more.

This would do nothing but undermine everything that we have done, as well as every developer currently working on a project. Having the scene support the selling of CD-R material, especially material that skirts into the gray area of illegal ROMs would destroy everything that has been acheived to date. Currently, major publishing houses take the Dreamcast community seriously. As soon as the scene starts selling stuff on eBay to "get back" at the profiteers that are there, you will reduce yourself to that level and have the entire community lumped in as pirates.
NightStalker wrote:no ones pushing you to go one way or the other.i havent suggested i was about to open any shop of any kind.i was suggesting that the devver's do it.but hey if ya wanna "jump ship"...i'll be more than happy to send you a plank.
Personally, I'd like it if people that actually did stuff for the community had their say in the direction it went, but if suddenly you're the "mouth of the community," I guess there is a LOT more that we'll have to fear.
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Post by goatdan »

Let me add this -- wouldn't it be a lot more righteous for people to contact the bidders on the illegal merchandise and tell them that they could get it for free and it is illegal for the person selling it to have it? If eBay won't police it themselves, there are other ways to do it without resorting to the same tactics as the people selling it illegally.

Also, if people want things done on eBay and eBay won't listen to them, try some other channels first. This is the first that I have heard about this, although I have seen some illegal copies of things on eBay (though not many). With the backing of the GOAT Store and the support of the developers, I could write to eBay asking them to remove the items and probably get a more acceptable result.

And if that doesn't work, there are other channels that I could legally go through to try to stop them.
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Post by Sir Savant »

Then contact ebay. Ive tried hundreds of times to get them to take down BOR mods.

The only reason they took down the SNES roms disc was cause it had Nintendo and other big name company roms on it.

I just was contacted by some guy asking why commercial roms were bad, here is the email I sent off :

Code: Select all

Homebrew roms are ones that were released as freeware, and they are
GNU Products. Commercial roms are still under copyright law and will
be for at least 70 years (Thank disney for that), unless copyright
holders release them as freeware, as some nes games were released
(just a few, not all).

It is only legal to have the commercial roms if you have the game,
which is why I only have 65 commercial snes roms.

Videos go by the same laws. It was illegal, because you are not
allowed to record the show and give it out, only allowed to record it
for personal use. If you would like, look up the Sony Betamax case
about this.

Emulation is only legal because we are allowed to play our games any
way we want, which is why PS emulation is so advanced. There was a
lawsuit from Sony, but they lost because as long as a user has both
the original console and game, they can play it whatever way they
want.

Many emulation communities frown upon sharing of roms (DCEmulation),
but others dont. The emulation communities are divided on
that issue. Its just the way it is.

I do not condone the sharing of any roms unless you have the original,
and I dont condone the sharing of DC, GC, PS2, or XBOX iso's
whatsoever since the systems are still plentiful.
See how ignorant people are.

I guess you are right, though. I dont see why anyone would buy a pd rom disk.

Goatdan, contact ebay for all those dang copies.
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Post by mankrip »

Here in Brazil there's a magazine selling pressed Beats of Rage CDs for the PS2, and on the cover it says "instructions on how to get it working on the X-Box included". I'm pretty sure that selling BOR is illegal, since BOR contains graphics and audio ripped from several other products, and it's sad to see people doing it this way.

By the way, if selling discs on E-Bay was a good idea the GOAT store would probably be doing it...
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Post by NightStalker »

Personally, I'd like it if people that actually did stuff for the community had their say in the direction it went, but if suddenly you're the "mouth of the community," I guess there is a LOT more that we'll have to fear.


i do my part,for the portion of the community that i wish to do my part for.that isnt your call to make,nor anyone elses here.as for being a mouth of the community.wouldnt claim to ever be that..but guys like you would like it if the only MOUTH being heard was yours...thank goodness it isnt.
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Post by goatdan »

Dark Savant0 wrote:Then contact ebay. Ive tried hundreds of times to get them to take down BOR mods.

.....

I guess you are right, though. I dont see why anyone would buy a pd rom disk.

Goatdan, contact ebay for all those dang copies.
Here's the things:

1) I don't have any legal grounds currently to stand on to get them to remove it. I could easily sic Nintendo or Sega on them to get rid of the emulators, but I wouldn't be protecting my own copyrights there, which means that I couldn't take legal action against them. Since the emulators themselves are legal and were published as freeware, you really can't stop that part of it... but other companies can. The authors of Beats of Rage would have to be willing to basically give me the entire rights of their game to go and threaten eBay in any proper manner, and since the original game has copyrighted materials in it, even doing so wouldn't really be legal. As much as I like Beats of Rage, it would be nearly impossible to defend it as "my own" with the mods that are sold on it, even if it is.

2) For the market there is for something like Beats of Rage, quite frankly it isn't a big bother to me. My time to do Dreamcast stuff is very limited -- I don't think that a lot of people on here really understand how much I do on a per-week basis, but lets just say that I have to make decisions. If we're going to have morons decide to undermine every acheivement that has been made in the community and sponsor the making of illegal copies of games on eBay or anywhere, then yes that is probably going to be my biggest concern. Obviously, it is to other people on here, and if that's the case I can exercise connections to help get rid of some of the problems, but it still won't solve anything.

So basically, I can -- but I would have to do it through other routes that may take a while to get results, or have devvers give me their code, which I am personally opposed too. For those of you that have ever heard about how GOAT Store contracts go, we are usually considered more than fair and we don't want to touch any intellectual property beyond pressing and distribution. Unless developers start begging me to do this, it doesn't make sense to me.
By the way, if selling discs on E-Bay was a good idea the GOAT store would probably be doing it...
As I've said, it isn't a good idea:

1) EBay policies itself however it feels best to do it. They've pulled auctions on me for totally legal things (a 4MB RAM cart for the Saturn for instance) and they let things that are completely illegal through constantly.

2) Selling Emulators and ROMs in general is not a bright idea. ROMs are illegal unless they are public domain, which is like what -- 6 MAME ROMs now and not too much else. People don't want that. As I mentioned, the reason the discs sell for a high price is because people are either scared of downloading the files themselves for legal reasons so they want the guilt elsewhere, or they can't find them all. People that are purchasing these discs for the most part know what they are getting, and if they are too lazy to search online to find the sites that have just the emulators online, then they deserve to get screwed for it.

3) Developments in this scene are watched by a good number of companies because of how amazing the scene is at knowing the correct legal bounds. There are a lot of people that are very interested in seeing how things happen. As soon as you decide to start publishing illegal stuff and supporting it as a scene, that support and interest will immediately die.

The Atari Jaguar was a really strong community for a while. One company within the scene had secured the rights to three finished games and produced them, and finished the coding of a fourth. This same company had other people interested in giving up their source code for publishing (and the developers would get paid), but then rather suddenly, a new company who had purchased a ton of the Atari stuff when they closed started finding protos and publishing them without worrying about the developers or if they had any legal grounds to do so. Suddenly, all of the legal efforts made no difference because the illegal games were just as good as the legally obtained ones, and it didn't take any effort or extra money for them to publish games.

To make a long story short, legal publishing ceased almost immediately, and it would be extremely hard for people to start it up again. Thanks to the fact that the community said, "Yes, who cares how they got the games. These are great!"

This all sounds like a noble cause on the outside, but the fact is that once this starts being done in a quasi-legal way, it just opens the door for 100 more times as much activity, and it will tear apart the fabric of the community that matters. I suppose that if you don't work on anything that you would want to publish or get noticed by a publisher, you wouldn't see this as such a bad thing... but if you aren't that close to the situation, why are you so morally outraged? And trying to make decisions for the developers who are actually in that position?

For the developers, if you are so angry about it, the best thin you could do is either contact me directly and I can give you some ideas about how to proceed or contact the companies who your work is infringing upon, explain that you didn't want it to infringe upon their work and that you would like them to have eBay stop selling the disc with their ROMs on it, and they'll probably listen. If Nintendo or Sega (or whoever) decides not to pursue it further, there really isn't that much more you can do -- I hope that the authors of emulators can appreciate that the price people are paying are for the ROMs, and not the emulator itself.

If we allow one or two people to decide what is best for the community thanks to some sort of "moral outrage" that they have that doesn't even involve their work, then we are going to have huge problems.

If the anyone decides to start illegally publishing games -- printing things like Half Life, Propeller Arena, Beats of Rage and so on -- and the community starts saying that it is okay for any reason and gets behind them, the days of any legal publishing is over. People can do Dreamcast publishing right now because everyone has to compete on the same grounds. If what happened in the Jaguar scene is repeated, no one would bother producing anything real because you can't get it noticed past the other stuff like Half Life or whatever.

I would suggest that this idea be ended right now, and the community hold the same stance it has since the beginning. If not, there are a lot of professional opportunities that will be lost and a lot of work that will be for nothing that has been put in by a bunch of developers.

I've always said the Dreamcast community was the best one ever -- it was because of the stance on legal issues. If the attitude of the Dreamcast community is changing, I'll still like my Dreamcast, but I won't be involved.
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Post by NightStalker »

man you seem to believe we are already doing something that would cause problems.this is just a discussion.nothing is being done.or has been done.and for the record i dont have any ill will towards you or want to swap insults etc.that wouldnt help anything.and again..i dont want to be any voice for anything.it was just a suggestion.you have over reacted.and no one doubts that you put time into the scene etc.but i still believe that any result..even if negligable is still better than no results at all.
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Post by Sir Savant »

Okay then, we should stop this now. No need to lose like our only publisher.

Would a copy of DCLINUx for 1 dollar plus ship be fine to sell?
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Post by MetaFox »

Dan, you aren't getting the point.

You keep bringing up Half Life and Propeller Arena. But no one is suggesting selling that, and no one ever will.

Also, there are more than 6 pdrom games, there are hundreds of them for each emulated system. Granted 3/4 of them wouldn't be that good to the mainstream gamer, but if you dig for the gems, you've still got a nicely sized collection. If you put on the disc the best native public domain Dreamcast games, the best NES PD games, the best Gameboy/Gameboy color PD games, the best Atari 2600 PD games, and the best PD games for any system that we can emulate at full speed without the need for an illegal to distribute bios, you've got yourself a mighty fine collection. And, if you get explicit permission from each and every author, including the authors of the emulators, before it's put on eBay, and you do it without making a single cent from the CD, where's the problem? How is that going to deteriorate into warez material? That's not even grey area - that's 100% white. It has as much legal ground to stand on as any previous independent commercial Dreamcast release - from Bleemcast to Maqiupai.
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