New Cool Herders Release

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New Cool Herders Release

Post by Wasgo » Fri Aug 30, 2002 9:21 pm

It looks like all hope for anything ever Cool Herder related by the original group is gone. Looking at http://www.mtsdhq.com , it seems they've officially disbanded. C'est la vie. :cry:

Time to move on.

Edit: Or maybe not. After reading the posts below, at least there's now a stand-alone release of this great game. Hopefully it's a step in the right direction.
Last edited by Wasgo on Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by |darc| » Fri Aug 30, 2002 10:01 pm

FU<K I wanted Cool Herders!
It's thinking...
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Post by EvilSporkMan » Sat Aug 31, 2002 9:21 am

Somebody has permission to upport it to the current KOS and continue work, I just don't know who. Anyone CAN upport it, though, without permission since it's GPLed. I could probably do the job, I just don't feel like it right now, especially since I have school.
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Re: The Dream Ends

Post by toastman » Sat Aug 31, 2002 10:11 am

Wasgo wrote:It looks like all hope for anything ever Cool Herder related by the original group is gone. Looking at http://www.mtsdhq.com , it seems they've officially disbanded. C'est la vie. :cry:

Time to move on.
No offense Wasgo, but Moving Target has been dead for a while. The one (I think) guy left just made it official.
It's sad, yes. But in a way better since now we know that MT won't be releasing a new Cool Herders anytime soon.

Cheers to the guys of Moving Target, all of luck in your future endeavors.
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Post by Wasgo » Sat Aug 31, 2002 5:28 pm

toastman wrote: No offense Wasgo, but Moving Target has been dead for a while. The one (I think) guy left just made it official.
It's sad, yes. But in a way better since now we know that MT won't be releasing a new Cool Herders anytime soon.
None taken. But while the site was up, there was always a chance they might reform and get back to working on the project. Plus, there is no longer even a site acknowledging that game ever existed. Now, it's just another unfinished demo on DC Tonic.

I do hope someone eventually picks up the game and runs with it. Doesn't even have to be on DC. It justs happens to be one of my favorite game concepts of all time.
Last edited by Wasgo on Wed Sep 04, 2002 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tursi » Tue Sep 03, 2002 11:30 pm

Lemme give a long, dirty history of the Cool Herders project. I think I'm qualified. ;)

You can take this as rumour or fact. What I say here may or may not be accurate. It's just my point of view. ;)

I worked a lot with Dan in the early days of DC development, although I didn't really contribute very much due to a tight RL time schedule. So when he got the idea to produce a CD for E3 to show off KOS to the companies, and especially Sega, I was flattered to be offered a spot.

However, I wasn't sure what to do. I considered porting some of my DOS programs, either Takatron or Yiff! Takatron had already been ported to PSX, though, and Yiff!'s code is an abomination from hell. Still, I was short on ideas.

So, I asked my artist friend Binky if HE had any ideas for a game which would be simple in concept, thus have a short programming time, but fun. We had about... a month, I think.

He came back the next day with Cool Herders, and a fairly complete concept which we spent an hour or so over ICQ fleshing out. He also agreed to provide the artwork for it.

We both got to work, and within a few days I had my basic tile engine and very crude graphics running (literally so, they were cut out of rather naughty images). As Binky provided artwork, I continued to work on the movement routines, and integrate the art. Mentioning the project at work, I managed to get Liandrin interested in provided music, and in fact he was considering writing his own music code for the ARM.

We decided to put it under Moving Target Software Design. MTSD was originally conceived by Gord (The Gord, yes) and NeoGeoMan, and they also designed the logo. They used it mostly for E3, and I joined the group a year or so after.

So, it'd been used for years, but never for anything official. We went ahead to do that, and added Gord and Neo to the list. Binky went ahead and designed a great webpage so I could post a URL in the game, while I registered two domains. (movingtargetcentral.com and mtsdhq.com. I liked the latter, but someone (Gord?) complained it was too hard to remember and preferred the former.)

I was tweaking code right up till the deadline, and Dan was great in helping me plug in his S3M player. I remember the time I spent comparing the source to the raw hex data to find the right bytes to change to play different S3M files, and only convert the samples once. ;) But that's why the code is such a mess - the whole thing was a rush job. It's also why the graphics are BMP files - I already had a loader handy.

I'm told my code breaks horribly in the current KOS. ;) Anyway...

So, we went to E3, and released the disc, and it seems to have had a great response - only five or six people ever mailed us, but the underground mumbles got loud enough to hear from time to time. (None of the companies we gave the disc to ever contacted me, though.)

However.

Gord used to run a game store at the time this was going on. However, abruptly Gord decided to go teach English in Korea, since he heard how much money was to be made. (Or something like that.) Gord offered Binky a deal by which Binky would take the store for a token $1, get to manage it and keep all profit so long as all bills were paid, and they'd work out paying for the stock at some point in the future. Binky was thrilled.

Binky took the store, and thus could not dedicate time to Cool Herders until he was done cleaning up, and reorganizing, and the other projects he wanted to do. That was fair.

Gord, meanwhile, who wasn't really involved anyway, went to Korea.

I'm nowhere near Gord OR Binky. However, Binky claimed that Gord was out to screw him over, Gord claimed Binky was trying to steal his store, and it just degraded from there. Gord sent some representatives in, shut down the store, and confiscated everything in it -- including Binky's possessions such as his computer.

After many months of listening to both sides of the battle and really being none the wiser, and with no resolution in sight, I gave up.

-I decided the odds of Binky ever regaining the art and tools that he lost, and finishing CH without starting from scratch, were near nil
-I decided that using MTSD as a name was a risky proposition at best, despite the permission I had from both creators
-I decided that leaving the 'company' and the 'project' on my list of things to do was just becoming stressful and wasn't worth it

I've posted the final build on my web page, although I still need to do a CD image for those who can't build it (which is probably many since KOS has advanced so much). It's not very different from the E3 demo, though.

I have bugged Binky a few times in the past about finishing Cool Herders. However, the timing of the project may be triggering bad memories, since I haven't got an answer. I might be open to inviting other artists into the project, if any were interested, but Binky needs to OK it first as it's his game, really.

If we do finish it, it won't be on the Dreamcast. The window I was aiming for with all my high hopes and expectations is long since closed and gone. PC is the most likely, GBA second most. I love the Dreamcast and it actually hurts to remember that it was killed. So I'd rather stay away.

Someone on the DCDev list recently slapped me around for saying DC Tonic was licensed under GPL, when in fact it was BSD. I don't remember.. I don't much care. I'm pretty sure I did comment for CH e CODE was free but the graphics and music are not. However, so long as credit is given, I believe at this time we're okay with it. ;)

If you port it, I want to know. If we port it - that'll be off in the future. I would appreciate if any derived works were not called 'Cool Herders', though, just in case. ;)

I haven't heard anything from the people I "authorized" to complete the project for DC or GBA in a rather long time, so that's why I went ahead and released it. It's not really their fault, I was supposed to do the PC port some time ago. ;)

Anyway, I'm not promising to finish the project. Really, I don't even want you guys to get your hopes up. I just wanted to vent a bit. Here are some links, though:

Cool Herders: http://tursi.yiffco.com/cgi-bin/onesoft.cgi?54
Binky: http://www.starbow.com
Gord: http://www.actsofgord.com
NeoGeoMan: http://www.atarilabs.com
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Post by toastman » Wed Sep 04, 2002 1:39 am

Thanks for the full answer Tursi, and sorry about all the trouble with MTS
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Post by Wasgo » Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:07 pm

I finally got around to burning a copy of the new Cool Herders version. Pretty sweet. Of course, being afraid to go anywhere near any version KOS let alone 0.90, I just replaced the Herders directory from the DC Tonic disc with the new one, and copied the Bin directory for safe measures. It'd still be nice to have it on a stand alone disc, but this will hold me. Thanks for releasing the new version, love the power-ups.
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Post by EvilSporkMan » Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:25 pm

it says pretty clearly on DCTonic that Cool Herders is GPLed, just to set the record straight. Most of the stuff is BSD, tho.
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Post by Tursi » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:29 am

A standalone version will be on my web page in 15-20 mins - depending on the modem speed here. (I hate moving ;) )

Finally put one together from bits of the DC Tonic disk and newly build code.

http://tursi.yiffco.com/games/herders
(yes, I cleaned up the URL too) ;)
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Post by Captain Skyhawk » Tue Sep 17, 2002 1:05 pm

Thanks great to have a stand alone version!
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Post by Wasgo » Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:02 pm

Happy, happy, happy, happy, happy. :D :D :D :D :D
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Post by EvilSporkMan » Wed Sep 18, 2002 2:08 pm

so what KOS version does it use now?
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Post by HyperG » Wed Sep 18, 2002 4:47 pm

derrr same old same old.
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Post by |darc| » Wed Sep 18, 2002 8:10 pm

OMG Gord has something to do with the DC scene! For the longest time I've been wondering the URL to that site (its a great site), I know it was actsofsomething.com, Gort or something, then I saw you mention someone named Gord and it snapped in my head (actsofgord.com!) then I scroll down to see the link and it is THE Gord... Gord is awesome.


Anyways, I mailed Moving Target and asked whether Cood Herders was dead forever or not and I got no response... but I'm glad to see that it's back. I loved Cool Herders!
It's thinking...
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Post by Wasgo » Fri Sep 20, 2002 12:43 pm

|darc| wrote: but I'm glad to see that it's back. I loved Cool Herders!
Me too, I just hope this time round it gets more recognition. Hopefully the problem last time was that it was part of a 70 meg download. This time, it's more accessible for everyone. I just wish the DC Emu news hadn't been down at the time of release.
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Post by Tursi » Mon Sep 23, 2002 4:54 pm

Darc: I *am* Moving Target. You can ask me. ;)
(I thought I'd replied to all the mail I got, though...)

Just to feed the rumour mill some - CH has been successfully ported to the lastest CVS of KOS thanks to Dan Potter. I don't have a BBA yet, though, so although I've duplicated the build success, I haven't seen it run. No promises. ;)

Gord's involvement with the DC scene was to kill the Cool Herders project. (I'm not bitter! ;) ) Anyway, not what I'd call a great contribution, cool page or not. ;) But... eh. We'll see. Binky is still non-committal and it's not encouraging to go it alone.

But, the messages in this thread are largely why I'm looking at it again. ;)
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Post by Wasgo » Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:17 pm

Tursi wrote: Binky is still non-committal and it's not encouraging to go it alone.
Well, lots of people on these forums constantly say they'd love to help a project, given a coder. Maybe one of them will finally produce. Lacking skills and all, I'm only with you in spirit.
But, the messages in this thread are largely why I'm looking at it again. ;)
Hurray for fans!
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