Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix

General purpose discussion about gaming and emulation.
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Post by Skynet » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:05 am

Neat!
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Post by Nyarlathotep » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:48 am

Awesome news.

This could be what tips me 'over the edge' to buy a PS3 (free online + decent fighter pads available)
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Post by Luriden » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:03 am

Meh. And I just bought Hyper Fighting on XBLA recently. What's the difference between Hyper Fighting and Turbo?
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Post by Luriden » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:46 am

Proper combos....meaning they're easier to pull off? IDK why, but I just really suck at Hyper Fighting. It's been awhile since I played SST2T, but I don't remember sucking this bad before, same with single player. And my ranked multiplayer stats are something like 2 wins and 30 something losses. I just find it really hard to pull of combos for some reason.
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Post by Juan » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:24 pm

Finally, a SF remake worth paying full price for.

BTW, look at HF Ryu's left leg. b0rked
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Post by Eckostyle » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:54 pm

Nice.

Lets hope its arcade perfect.
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Post by Vlad Tepes » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:59 pm

Hasney wrote:
Freaky Keneaki wrote:Meh. And I just bought Hyper Fighting on XBLA recently. What's the difference between Hyper Fighting and Turbo?
Hyper Fighting IS Turbo, but the part that makes it different is the "Super" part. You get proper combos, super combo meter, more moves, better GFX, 4 new playable fighters, Akuma/Gouki hidden, much more balance.

But the main thing is it won't be bordered if you're running in HD, it will be full screen up to 1080p :D
I've been playing a looooot of SF2 the last few weeks, and Super Turbo is waaay more challenging than the others in the series...at least the original arcade release of SSF2T. I think Capcom toned it down to a playable level for the Anniversary Collection, and I'm guessing it will be the same here. I'm curious to see it. A much needed upgrade indeed.
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Post by Nyarlathotep » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:16 pm

Eckostyle wrote:Nice.

Lets hope its arcade perfect.
It looks like Udon have actually traced over the original sprites so animations and hitboxes should be exactly the same as they always were.
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Post by cube_b3 » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:34 pm

:| Let's redraw the same game wow sounds neat. What? Why?

Give us a new game instead, Where's Street Fighter 4. Sorry guys but what's the excitement for?
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Post by Nyarlathotep » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:58 pm

Hasney wrote: Name me another 2D fighter thats done in HD?
Forget fighter, how many 2D games are there in HD period?

If Capcom want to rerelease an old (and more importantly proven) game in HD as a test ground for possible future projects, more power to them.

If sales are good, then they have a good reason right there to remake some of their other franchises with updated visuals - I know I can list over a dozen genuine capcom 2D classics that could do witha bit of a face lift.
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Post by DaMadFiddler » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:23 pm

I was talking with Quzar about this the other day, and we're both of the opinion that there's a wealth of untapped potential in the realm of high-def 2D games. Aside from puzzle games, and the occasional RPG or fighter, 2D games had just about died off on home consoles by the time we had systems that capably handled full standard resolution.

Think about how good Guilty Gear X looked, and bear in mind that it was designed for STANDARD def. Now think about new platformers, or RPGs, or strategy games, or brawlers, or what-have-you, hand drawn for 1080 output. Hell, even the Wii could handle that, so long as the system is physically capable of outputting the resolution.

Plus, it could shift your development focus. That's more of your development time you could devote to art and level design, and more of the system's processing power you have free to devote to environmental effects, advanced event / behavior / physics routines, and other opportunities to enrich gameplay.

Think about an HD follow-up to Super Metroid, with detailed dripping walls, gleaming Metroids whose tendrils and organelles stand out in almost microscopic detail, and the fine dust and sediment resting loosely on the floor of an abandoned cavern.

2D art really has not been fully utilized, and is capable of some gorgeous effects and results that just simply aren't practical in a 3D environment. In the late days of the SNES and the Genesis, they really pushed the limits of what contemporary technology and clever design could do with 2D. But since the advent of 3D gaming, much of that creative drive has been lost in the two-dimensional realm. Now we have a wealth of new design and programming techniques we've developed since then, as well as exponentially more powerful systems to work with...and I for one would LOVE to see what these tools are capable of producing in skilled hands. But that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Now picture a deep strategy game, with entire cultures, economies, and ecosystems evolving, as you bargain with and fight clever and nuanced AI forces. The upcoming game Spore is one of the first really to even attempt something with this level of depth and interdependent, dynamic existence in a virtual world...but even it involves a lot of false parameters and arbitrary implementation to keep the system within the realm of processing practicality. With all the extra resources freed by implementing a 2D engine, think how much more could be devoted--both design-wise, and processor-wise--to all the background AI that drives a game.

For example, picture an action-RPG, set in a Miyazaki-esque fantasyscape, requiring its player to manipulate intricate and complex muti-part puzzles, performing actions that create subtle but dramatic changes throughout the entire game world...throwing a switch to open a sluice gate to solve a water puzzle in a cave causes a small, short-lived flood in a stream below, slightly altering the flow of that river, affecting the population and behavior of towns relying on that water source, slightly affecting the sea level and causing small changes in the currents leading out to sea, which in turn causes a slight change in weather patterns, which affects the environment of the entire land.

Stuff like that isn't really practical to work into a game in real time, and furthermore is difficult to keep running dynamically with everything else going on in a game. But without the strain of a 3D engine, or the need to spend time building and skinning and animating models and fine-tuning 3D physics, it becomes more feasible to devote some of your background processing to more advanced NPC/enemy AI, and a more fully rounded, dynamic (rather than scripted) environmental behavior.
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Post by Covar » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:55 pm

2d animation is too expensive.
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Post by Juan » Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:16 pm

I'm looking forward to Battle Fantasia.
2D playability with 3D graphics - better looking and more animation.
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Post by mankrip » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:06 pm

I see they're doing several little changes to the drawing designs as well. And Ryu's face looks less expressive. Anyway, this version has a great potential.
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Post by BlackAura » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:05 am

DaMadFiddler - As Covar pointed out, the probem with 2D animation is that it's far more expensive to produce than 3D.

For a 3D model in a modern game, you need to create two meshes (one high-detail version, and one simplified in-game version). Those meshes are rigged for animation, and the animation is carried out by setting keyframes and letting the game interpolate between the frames. A five second animation sequence might consist of fifty keyframes, but can be played back at 60FPS to produce a total of 300 frames. In terms of textures, a normal map (and maybe a displacement map, depending on how the shaders are set up) is generated from the high-detail mesh and the in-game mesh, then an artist needs to draw two or three textures (a diffuse map, a specular map, and possibly an emissive map). Light and shadow are all handled by the game engine, or using off-line tools.

That's a lot of hard work, but it scales pretty well. There's a lot of work required to create the mesh, rig it for animation, and texture it, but that all has the be done only once. Animations can be done without having to re-do any of that work, which is not true for 2D animations, which need to be redrawn.

It's also not that hard to increase or decrease the level of detail of a 3D mesh to make it fit a particular system, or a particular rendering resolution. Again, that's not true for traditional 2D sprites, which are drawn for exactly one resolution.

The memory requirements for 2D are also much higher, since each frame has to be stored separately.

All that said, there's a lot that can be done with 2D that can't easily be done with 3D, and there are some interesting applications of 3D features to 2D graphics that haven't really been explored. It's also possible to build a 2D animation system that didn't use raster-based sprites, but used some kind of vector system, possibly allowing the same kind of keyframe-based animation as 3D models. It should even be possible to use features like pixel shaders on modern 3D hardware to do 2D lighting effects, so your graphics could interact with light sources.

The minor issue with that is that such a system doesn't exist at the moment. And such a system would probably be nearly as complex as an equivalent 3D animation system / rendering engine.
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Re:

Post by Christuserloeser » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:42 am

Looking very good :D but could you also choose the original arcade version ? Also I wonder how they solve the animation aspect of the conversion: Will they attempt to smooth the animation by drawing additional frames or will they keep the original animations ? - which I think I would prefer as this method wouldn't affect the gameplay. Maybe they'll make it optional ?

Thinking of it, I am pretty happy with SSF2X for Dreamcast =P Still, looking forward to see the game in motion.
DaMadFiddler wrote:Think about how good Guilty Gear X looked, and bear in mind that it was designed for STANDARD def. Now think about new platformers, or RPGs, or strategy games, or brawlers, or what-have-you, hand drawn for 1080 output. Hell, even the Wii could handle that, so long as the system is physically capable of outputting the resolution.
Actually, the Dreamcast and Wii do output ED, Enhanced Definition, not SD:
http://www.dreamcast-scene.com/index.php/Main/VGA

Oh, yes and don't forget: The PS2 supports up to 1080p !


Edit: ...but yeah, 2D suddenly collapsed with the PSX/N64 era. I always thought 32bit should have been about 2D and I guess that's what the Saturn initially was intended to be: A 2D machine. A bit sad that these capabilities were rarely ever used in actual games. All I can think of are Darius Gaiden, Saturn Bomberman, Astal, Clockwork Knight and the Capcom/SNK games.
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Re: Re:

Post by RMD » Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:05 pm

Christuserloeser wrote:Looking very good :D but could you also choose the original arcade version ? Also I wonder how they solve the animation aspect of the conversion: Will they attempt to smooth the animation by drawing additional frames or will they keep the original animations ? - which I think I would prefer as this method wouldn't affect the gameplay. Maybe they'll make it optional ?

Thinking of it, I am pretty happy with SSF2X for Dreamcast =P Still, looking forward to see the game in motion.
DaMadFiddler wrote:Think about how good Guilty Gear X looked, and bear in mind that it was designed for STANDARD def. Now think about new platformers, or RPGs, or strategy games, or brawlers, or what-have-you, hand drawn for 1080 output. Hell, even the Wii could handle that, so long as the system is physically capable of outputting the resolution.
Actually, the Dreamcast and Wii do output ED, Enhanced Definition, not SD:
http://www.dreamcast-scene.com/index.php/Main/VGA

Oh, yes and don't forget: The PS2 supports up to 1080p !


Edit: ...but yeah, 2D suddenly collapsed with the PSX/N64 era. I always thought 32bit should have been about 2D and I guess that's what the Saturn initially was intended to be: A 2D machine. A bit sad that these capabilities were rarely ever used in actual games. All I can think of are Darius Gaiden, Saturn Bomberman, Astal, Clockwork Knight and the Capcom/SNK games.
Ps2 is 1080i not p huge difference. ALso most games have to much shit going on for the ps2 to even be able to process it in 1080i. God of war 2 was supposed to have it but simply couldnt handle it at a reasonable frame rate.
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Re: Re:

Post by Christuserloeser » Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:40 pm

Could you name a PS2 game that runs in 640x480i ?

Edit: other than Singstar of course.
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Re: Re:

Post by RMD » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:27 pm

Christuserloeser wrote:Could you name a PS2 game that runs in 640x480i ?

Edit: other than Singstar of course.
What does 640x480i have to do with anything when you mentioned 1080p? 1900x1020?
Most ps2 games run ins 480i and then are output in 320x240.
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Re: Re:

Post by Christuserloeser » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:50 pm

I tried to be funny. I probably should have put some smiley here:
Christuserloeser wrote:Oh, yes and don't forget: The PS2 supports up to 1080p ! :roll:
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