Goldeneye 007

General purpose discussion about gaming and emulation.
User avatar
mankrip
DCEmu Ex-Mod
DCEmu Ex-Mod
Posts: 3697
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 5:12 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by mankrip » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:56 am

pixel wrote:Granted, I will admit this type of gameplay can be formulaic and shallow. However, these games actually give me a reason to go over the next hill.
And the need for such a reason is a problem. During the period I've got insane in the last few years, one of the things that fucked my mind the most was trying to get along with people who had this kind of reasoning. In the end, all those people did was making me not enjoy playing any games anymore, with absolutely no positive trade-off for this.

Saying "the game must give me a reason to play it" is the same as saying "the food must give me a reason to eat it", and this is why it's sick. The need for entertainment is something that must be satisfied when it arises naturally, otherwise we're just letting other people fuck with our will.

When we don't feel like playing games, not playing them will make them a lot more enjoyable when we finally want to play them. When I want to play a linear game, I play it; when I want to play a non-linear game, I play it; the games don't give me a reason for this need, they just satisfy it.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh mankrip Hell's end wgah'nagl fhtagn.
==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
Dev blog / Twitter / YouTube
Image
User avatar
pixel
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Posts: 4972
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:52 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by pixel » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:32 am

Manoel wrote:
pixel wrote:Granted, I will admit this type of gameplay can be formulaic and shallow. However, these games actually give me a reason to go over the next hill.
And the need for such a reason is a problem. During the period I've got insane in the last few years, one of the things that fucked my mind the most was trying to get along with people who had this kind of reasoning. In the end, all those people did was making me not enjoy playing any games anymore, with absolutely no positive trade-off for this.

Saying "the game must give me a reason to play it" is the same as saying "the food must give me a reason to eat it", and this is why it's sick. The need for entertainment is something that must be satisfied when it arises naturally, otherwise we're just letting other people fuck with our will.

When we don't feel like playing games, not playing them will make them a lot more enjoyable when we finally want to play them. When I want to play a linear game, I play it; when I want to play a non-linear game, I play it; the games don't give me a reason for this need, they just satisfy it.
… What?

When I talked about a reason to continue, I was talking about the plot of a video game. In my opinion, original FPSs didn't offer much incentive to open the next door other than "lol win." New games actually construct a story to justify an in-game action. It seems elementary that there should be a story in a game. Since when have games without some sort of plot been in vogue? Also, the idea of "Will" has never been in a video game. Perceived will within a game is programmed in by the game's creator and has finite limits. Or were you referring to the gamer's will to play a game? … This conversation is getting advanced.
User avatar
Specially Cork
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11423
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:01 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by Specially Cork » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:09 am

Of course food needs to give me a reason to eat it. If it doesn't, I will choose a different food. Popular reasons include taste, smell, visual appeal and price. I guess you could say that the deliciousness of a hamburger is corrupting my free will to the point where I'm never going to give a dog's ringpiece a fair chance, but I can live with that.
Image
User avatar
pixel
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Posts: 4972
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:52 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by pixel » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:20 pm

Relevant:
User avatar
Specially Cork
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11423
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:01 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by Specially Cork » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:01 pm

That's the FPS genre these days. Cover system + set pieces. I have no idea why he's blaming console-owners for the problem. It's just lazy developers. There's a new CoD game everytime I fart. Some of these FPS franchises have gone the way of sports games.
Image
User avatar
mankrip
DCEmu Ex-Mod
DCEmu Ex-Mod
Posts: 3697
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 5:12 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by mankrip » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:22 pm

BoneyCork wrote:Of course food needs to give me a reason to eat it.
No, it gives you a desire to choose it over something else, but not the need to eat it; it's the hunger that gives you this need.

I'm kind of splitting hairs here, but this is the definition I'm using.

What I'm trying to say is that if someone doesn't like a certain gaming genre, it's the person's problem, not the genre's.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh mankrip Hell's end wgah'nagl fhtagn.
==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
Dev blog / Twitter / YouTube
Image
Lartrak
DCEmu Respected
DCEmu Respected
Posts: 6166
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 9:28 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by Lartrak » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:35 am

What I'm trying to say is that if someone doesn't like a certain gaming genre, it's the person's problem, not the genre's.
Technically this is true. But, equally true, if you don't find a piece of dog shit delicious, it's YOUR problem, not the piece of shit's.
How to be a Conservative:
You have to believe everything that has ever gone wrong in the history of your country was due to Liberals.
Jeeba Jabba
Jeeba Jabba
Posts: 9106
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 7:00 am
Location: New Orleans, Louisiana
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by Jeeba Jabba » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:57 am

pixel wrote:Relevant:

If someone ever says CODBLOPS to my face, I'm going to punch theirs.


As for the topic on hand, Call of Duty's single player is still far more enjoyable than its multiplayer. While COD4's RPG-esque experience system was revolutionary, the games are killing the genre. Why? Well, let's see here: The video games industry is a fucking business market. If these become (and they have) the standard for marketable FPS games, no dev house will ever get the green light for anything different. And why is COD's multiplayer the most insanely popular thing in the world, far surpassing Halo's at this time? Because it's insanely easy. *Anyone* can play with this game competitively. While the experience system grants weapon upgrades and perks, the starting tier of weapons will kill anyone in just a couple of shots (which isn't all too hard when you're playing a game that has a built-in aim assist).

Spawn randomly, run around in circles, spray and pray when you see something move. That's Call of Duty's online play, and it's cancer. If you want a nearly perfect online experience with a modern FPS, do yourself a favor and get Battlefield: Bad Company 2 on PC. I haven't been this loyal to an online shooter since Tribes and CS 1.5

tl;dr Call of Duty hurts the genre. Massively.
Image
"He who cannot draw on 3,000 years is living hand-to-mouth." -Goethe
User avatar
mrandyk
DCEmu Mega Poster
DCEmu Mega Poster
Posts: 1629
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:31 pm
Location: Stalking
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by mrandyk » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:32 am

Bad Company 2 is weak, I greatly prefer the first one.
Image
User avatar
pixel
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Posts: 4972
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:52 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by pixel » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:51 am

Jeeba Jabba wrote:
pixel wrote:Relevant:

If someone ever says CODBLOPS to my face, I'm going to punch theirs.


As for the topic on hand, Call of Duty's single player is still far more enjoyable than its multiplayer. While COD4's RPG-esque experience system was revolutionary, the games are killing the genre. Why? Well, let's see here: The video games industry is a fucking business market. If these become (and they have) the standard for marketable FPS games, no dev house will ever get the green light for anything different. And why is COD's multiplayer the most insanely popular thing in the world, far surpassing Halo's at this time? Because it's insanely easy. *Anyone* can play with this game competitively. While the experience system grants weapon upgrades and perks, the starting tier of weapons will kill anyone in just a couple of shots (which isn't all too hard when you're playing a game that has a built-in aim assist).

Spawn randomly, run around in circles, spray and pray when you see something move. That's Call of Duty's online play, and it's cancer. If you want a nearly perfect online experience with a modern FPS, do yourself a favor and get Battlefield: Bad Company 2 on PC. I haven't been this loyal to an online shooter since Tribes and CS 1.5

tl;dr Call of Duty hurts the genre. Massively.
I won't disagree with you on CoD's multiplayer. But I still find it to be extremely fun. MW2 was addictive until everyone hacked and got their level maxed out. I loved MW, but never bought it because of money and time constraints. I've gone through a couple matches of BC2, and I will also agree it is the superior game. That being said, I haven't played it nearly as much as MW2 or Reach.
Luriden
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Posts: 5954
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:42 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by Luriden » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:15 pm

I got to the Night Club level on Goldeneye. Meh. It's literally just CoD with a James Bond skin and with Goldeneye/Perfect Dark objectives. Nothing to really see here. I'll play it again when I get bored but it's still an FPS. I gave this game a chance as there would at least be nostalgia tied to it, but the levels have been changed too much outside of their introductions. Once I got past the sniper on the Dam, it immediately felt like MW2. I forgot it was a Bond game until I had to do something besides hide behind objects and look for red barrels to shoot at.
User avatar
pixel
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Posts: 4972
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:52 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by pixel » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:25 am

Luriden wrote:I got to the Night Club level on Goldeneye. Meh. It's literally just CoD with a James Bond skin and with Goldeneye/Perfect Dark objectives. Nothing to really see here. I'll play it again when I get bored but it's still an FPS. I gave this game a chance as there would at least be nostalgia tied to it, but the levels have been changed too much outside of their introductions. Once I got past the sniper on the Dam, it immediately felt like MW2. I forgot it was a Bond game until I had to do something besides hide behind objects and look for red barrels to shoot at.
What were you expecting? I don't understand. It has the same skin and the same objectives. What exactly makes it more like CoD and less like the original? I don't remember hiding behind objects or shooting red barrels in Cod: MW, MW2 or WaW.
Luriden
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Posts: 5954
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:42 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by Luriden » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:12 am

pixel wrote:
Luriden wrote:I got to the Night Club level on Goldeneye. Meh. It's literally just CoD with a James Bond skin and with Goldeneye/Perfect Dark objectives. Nothing to really see here. I'll play it again when I get bored but it's still an FPS. I gave this game a chance as there would at least be nostalgia tied to it, but the levels have been changed too much outside of their introductions. Once I got past the sniper on the Dam, it immediately felt like MW2. I forgot it was a Bond game until I had to do something besides hide behind objects and look for red barrels to shoot at.
What were you expecting? I don't understand. It has the same skin and the same objectives. What exactly makes it more like CoD and less like the original? I don't remember hiding behind objects or shooting red barrels in Cod: MW, MW2 or WaW.
Then you've never played CoD: MW, MW2, or WaW. That's the whole point of those games, that's like saying you don't remember seeing zombies in Left 4 Dead (alright, I went overboard a little with that analogy, but you get the idea).

I beat all three of those on veteran difficulty, as well as CoD2, before giving up on the series entirely, and that's all the campaign consists of. Maybe on the easiest difficulty setting you can run and gun, but you're not supposed to be able to survive without hiding and shooting nearby cars and exploding objects to flush out enemies from their hiding spots. All of the CoD games except for MW2 had respawning enemies, so the challenge was to hide and kill enemies, yet keep pushing forward, otherwise you'll be hiding forever. Goldeneye doesn't have the respawning enemies, but otherwise it's the same. I still find Goldeneye more enjoyable, but I'm getting a "been there, done that" feeling with it. I don't have a problem with them doing a reimagining of the original Goldeneye, I just wish they'd have chosen a better engine to base it off of.
User avatar
Specially Cork
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11423
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:01 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by Specially Cork » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:50 am

Buying an FPS published by Activision is hardly the best thing to do if you don't want a game like CoD.
Image
User avatar
mrandyk
DCEmu Mega Poster
DCEmu Mega Poster
Posts: 1629
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:31 pm
Location: Stalking
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by mrandyk » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:32 am

I dont think that buying anything published by Activision is the best thing to do, they are pretty much the epitomy of whats wrong with what is now the gaming industry.
Image
User avatar
pixel
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Posts: 4972
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:52 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by pixel » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:31 pm

Luriden wrote:
pixel wrote:
Luriden wrote:I got to the Night Club level on Goldeneye. Meh. It's literally just CoD with a James Bond skin and with Goldeneye/Perfect Dark objectives. Nothing to really see here. I'll play it again when I get bored but it's still an FPS. I gave this game a chance as there would at least be nostalgia tied to it, but the levels have been changed too much outside of their introductions. Once I got past the sniper on the Dam, it immediately felt like MW2. I forgot it was a Bond game until I had to do something besides hide behind objects and look for red barrels to shoot at.
What were you expecting? I don't understand. It has the same skin and the same objectives. What exactly makes it more like CoD and less like the original? I don't remember hiding behind objects or shooting red barrels in Cod: MW, MW2 or WaW.
Then you've never played CoD: MW, MW2, or WaW. That's the whole point of those games, that's like saying you don't remember seeing zombies in Left 4 Dead (alright, I went overboard a little with that analogy, but you get the idea).

I beat all three of those on veteran difficulty, as well as CoD2, before giving up on the series entirely, and that's all the campaign consists of. Maybe on the easiest difficulty setting you can run and gun, but you're not supposed to be able to survive without hiding and shooting nearby cars and exploding objects to flush out enemies from their hiding spots. All of the CoD games except for MW2 had respawning enemies, so the challenge was to hide and kill enemies, yet keep pushing forward, otherwise you'll be hiding forever. Goldeneye doesn't have the respawning enemies, but otherwise it's the same. I still find Goldeneye more enjoyable, but I'm getting a "been there, done that" feeling with it. I don't have a problem with them doing a reimagining of the original Goldeneye, I just wish they'd have chosen a better engine to base it off of.
After playing the first level, your analysis is correct. Good work, sir.
Luriden
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Posts: 5954
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:42 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by Luriden » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:47 pm

pixel wrote:
Luriden wrote:
pixel wrote:
Luriden wrote:I got to the Night Club level on Goldeneye. Meh. It's literally just CoD with a James Bond skin and with Goldeneye/Perfect Dark objectives. Nothing to really see here. I'll play it again when I get bored but it's still an FPS. I gave this game a chance as there would at least be nostalgia tied to it, but the levels have been changed too much outside of their introductions. Once I got past the sniper on the Dam, it immediately felt like MW2. I forgot it was a Bond game until I had to do something besides hide behind objects and look for red barrels to shoot at.
What were you expecting? I don't understand. It has the same skin and the same objectives. What exactly makes it more like CoD and less like the original? I don't remember hiding behind objects or shooting red barrels in Cod: MW, MW2 or WaW.
Then you've never played CoD: MW, MW2, or WaW. That's the whole point of those games, that's like saying you don't remember seeing zombies in Left 4 Dead (alright, I went overboard a little with that analogy, but you get the idea).

I beat all three of those on veteran difficulty, as well as CoD2, before giving up on the series entirely, and that's all the campaign consists of. Maybe on the easiest difficulty setting you can run and gun, but you're not supposed to be able to survive without hiding and shooting nearby cars and exploding objects to flush out enemies from their hiding spots. All of the CoD games except for MW2 had respawning enemies, so the challenge was to hide and kill enemies, yet keep pushing forward, otherwise you'll be hiding forever. Goldeneye doesn't have the respawning enemies, but otherwise it's the same. I still find Goldeneye more enjoyable, but I'm getting a "been there, done that" feeling with it. I don't have a problem with them doing a reimagining of the original Goldeneye, I just wish they'd have chosen a better engine to base it off of.
After playing the first level, your analysis is correct. Good work, sir.
First level? I'm on the Night Club, that's the fourth level. How far must I play before I understand the game's brilliance? As you stated, the game must give me a reason to play it and hook me early on. It didn't, so I declared the game "played" and moved on.
User avatar
pixel
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Soul Sold for DCEmu
Posts: 4972
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:52 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by pixel » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:59 pm

Luriden wrote:
pixel wrote:
Luriden wrote:
pixel wrote:
Luriden wrote:I got to the Night Club level on Goldeneye. Meh. It's literally just CoD with a James Bond skin and with Goldeneye/Perfect Dark objectives. Nothing to really see here. I'll play it again when I get bored but it's still an FPS. I gave this game a chance as there would at least be nostalgia tied to it, but the levels have been changed too much outside of their introductions. Once I got past the sniper on the Dam, it immediately felt like MW2. I forgot it was a Bond game until I had to do something besides hide behind objects and look for red barrels to shoot at.
What were you expecting? I don't understand. It has the same skin and the same objectives. What exactly makes it more like CoD and less like the original? I don't remember hiding behind objects or shooting red barrels in Cod: MW, MW2 or WaW.
Then you've never played CoD: MW, MW2, or WaW. That's the whole point of those games, that's like saying you don't remember seeing zombies in Left 4 Dead (alright, I went overboard a little with that analogy, but you get the idea).

I beat all three of those on veteran difficulty, as well as CoD2, before giving up on the series entirely, and that's all the campaign consists of. Maybe on the easiest difficulty setting you can run and gun, but you're not supposed to be able to survive without hiding and shooting nearby cars and exploding objects to flush out enemies from their hiding spots. All of the CoD games except for MW2 had respawning enemies, so the challenge was to hide and kill enemies, yet keep pushing forward, otherwise you'll be hiding forever. Goldeneye doesn't have the respawning enemies, but otherwise it's the same. I still find Goldeneye more enjoyable, but I'm getting a "been there, done that" feeling with it. I don't have a problem with them doing a reimagining of the original Goldeneye, I just wish they'd have chosen a better engine to base it off of.
After playing the first level, your analysis is correct. Good work, sir.
First level? I'm on the Night Club, that's the fourth level. How far must I play before I understand the game's brilliance? As you stated, the game must give me a reason to play it and hook me early on. It didn't, so I declared the game "played" and moved on.
I agreed with your previous statement.
User avatar
DaMadFiddler
Team Screamcast
Team Screamcast
Posts: 7953
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 7:17 am
Location: San Francisco, CA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by DaMadFiddler » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:34 am

Visiting my folks for Thanksgiving. The only game console here is my brother's N64, so I popped in the original GoldenEye and played about halfway through. This is the first time I've played the original in at least six or seven.

One thing that surprised me right off the bat is how well the graphics have held up, all things considered. The '64 is connected to a 24" CRT TV via composite cables, and I was honestly surprised by how bearable it was to look at; I was expecting horrid smeary garbage. (I have a really hard time looking at 3D PSone games, due to the horrible mess that low-res, low-poly early 3D games can be). The character models are kind of awkward, but aside from that, the game really isn't all that bad... and the N64 (and any console that runs at less than 640x480, honestly) really does look much better on a CRT than on other types of displays.

It also really brought the difference in FPS styles into sharp contrast. While it dod add a fair amount of variety through secondary objectives and other elements, the original GoldenEye is still very much a "post-Doom" FPS. Most levels are simple (or occasionally not-so-simple) maps, which you run around openly in a search for the appropriate keys. Sometimes the "keys" would take the form of an objective or a plot-trigger point--that's part of what made this game special back in the day--but when you really get down to it, it's still "explore the maze, find the key so you can move on." The new GoldenEye, on the other hand, is more of a guided narrative: the levels are more linear, with plot more closely integrated; rather than wandering around searching for a key, it is always clear exactly where you're supposed to be headed, and the focus is on getting to the next area / triggering the next plot point rather than working your way through the maze. I'm not going to call one better than the other; they are simply very different types of games. And it really shows how much FPS have changed in the last decade or so. When the Rare GoldenEye was made, they were still more or less building on the foundation of Doom. Now, most "standard" or "traditional" FPS (including the Activision GoldenEye) are part of the plot-driven, waypoint-based House that Half-Life Built.

This leads directly into story. The plot seems more closely integrated into the new GoldenEye, which is a direct result of the changes in game design cited above. Part of this is simply because such things weren't really an option with the more limited hardware of the mid-90s, and part of it is a shift in design philosophy. GoldenEye integrated the plot reasonably well for its time, but the new game does a much better job of telling a story. The trade-off is that the story becomes a more important part of the experience; if the Bond license and story was stripped out of both games, and they were each presented as generic FPS games, the older GoldenEye would probably be more fun to play. The Bond "experience" is really what drives the new game, whereas the older title is simply a good FPS that also happens to be a Bond game.

So, that's that. Just a few thoughts as I unwind from Thanksgiving. Also, a fun fact: it turns out that, for whatever reason, my brother had two GoldenEye cartridges. So now we have a copy of GoldenEye for N64 to take home :)
User avatar
DaMadFiddler
Team Screamcast
Team Screamcast
Posts: 7953
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 7:17 am
Location: San Francisco, CA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Goldeneye 007

Post by DaMadFiddler » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:25 am

Also: I *still* hate the N64 controller.
Post Reply