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Post by yamada » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:16 am

When a lot of people disclose information on GDI.
You declare that you are doing same Dump without fail.
And, the GDI file seems to be open to the public in your name.
However, you conceal the ring code etc.
I think your behavior to be very insincere.
There is no sincerity in the action of TOSEC.
The reputation in the forum in Japan is not good.
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Post by Nologic » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:58 pm

hmm well I'll field this question.

First off I doubt anyone trash talks Tosec\Dumpcast as much as myself...that said keeping the ring code hush is more my doing, than the others.

Tosec & Dumpcast originally were more than willing to post that info in the beginning. However I was insistent that the information stay under wraps, do to my worries about possible future prosecution of dumpers. Far as I'm aware of I'm the only one that raised the red maybe in the future such info will be made available as I no longer dump.

That said...if the data checks checks out...ring code or not. I'm aware of one American Football game that was verified off 3 disc's that didn't share the same ring code...which I think Maddog even posted about here in this forum.

The ring code only really comes into play to help hint at if a dump is bad or not...if two disc's have the same ring but different CRC32's...then likely one of them is bad...if two disc's with different rings have different CRC32's...they both could be valid.

Personally I view the whole ring code thing as being overly anal, but Tosec is keeping records of what they are all the same.

I'm all up for people disliking Tosec & Dumpcast...but this issue lands more on my shoulders than theirs.
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Post by hotaru » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:06 am

tip of the hat. ;) been maintaining a database of GD-ROMs i've dumped in the following format should a dumper in another forum need RINGCODE data.

Code: Select all

PART NO. [T-20401M]
BARCODE: [4 521088 002640]
GD-ROM PART NO. [T-20401M]
RINGCODE: [T-20401M-0739 3 A2]

TRACK01.BIN 150 5443 12451488
TRACK02.RAW 5594 6331 1735776
TRACK03.BIN 45150 549299 1185760800

1 0 4 2352 TRACK01.BIN 0
2 5444 0 2352 TRACK02.RAW 0
3 45000 4 2352 TRACK03.BIN 0

game (
	name "[T-20401M] ZERO GUNNER2"
	description "[SEGA SEGAKATANA][SEGA ENTERPRISES][B0F4][GD-ROM1/1][J][01BBA10][T20401M][V1.000][20010622][1ST_READ.BIN][SEGA LC-T-204][ZERO GUNNER2]"
	rom ( name TRACK01.BIN size 12451488 crc 1100CE1B md5 54B5B6A2F7230556E4732652828E00D1 sha1 6CDC2AB13819C380483B674436328398935CE2CB )
	rom ( name TRACK02.RAW size 1735776 crc B191B505 md5 8659426A29F58924F5F0458CC720098B sha1 E12B9AE5EBC79B7DA5271BCE29DF450671CE5D93 )
	rom ( name TRACK03.BIN size 1185760800 crc 27A654CE md5 980A3B1071E80F1BA5607AB7139F7FAA sha1 86E017942474EF38C5A352C017C0F68937635E99 )
	rom ( name ZERO_GUNNER2.CUE size 84 crc 148D0345 md5 B7AC8C53A719759C3825834972A7784C sha1 F29648CBE8E021D7AFE587041F260898CC27D88E )
	rom ( name ZERO_GUNNER2.GDI size 88 crc 78D0C4F8 md5 9C0AE30DC5E6FCB1DB2CA347CDCEB064 sha1 2691D1FFCCA07F256AEB8C55ED7F9B54F0A4D2CB )

PART NO. [T-20401M-1]
BARCODE: [4 560126 140067]

@admins- any chance of compiling a database of RINGCODE data using the PART NO. as the primary key?
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Post by Maddog » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:03 am

@yamada: I keep records of all submissions and ringcodes we have, whether they came from the core TOSEC/Dumpcast team or from outside submissions. If any submission matches, it's only reasonable to say that it matches in public forum and add it to the dats. If it doesn't, I don't report that to anyone else except to the dumper that submitted the possibly wrong information, so he can re-check his dump. Even in this case, dumpers never are given the "correct" CRCs before they match them. This information is only known to me and let me assure you I'd never cheat on that. It would completely defy the purpose of the project and would also be very easy to detect (anyone dumping same disc should come up with the same checksums, making an intentional error stand out way too easily)
All dumps in the dats have been matched by at least 2 different people using different discs and consoles. One of the two always being a member of the core team, since two outside members could have been sharing information elsewhere and pretending they did two dumps. Not one exception made, this is a standard rule for TOSEC dats.

The main reason we are not disclosing too much information in public is to avoid cheating from people out of the core project. That's why I don't make my dumps public until someone else submits the same dump. TOSEC has several times in the past met occassions where outside people (probably in an attempt to join the team) said "yes, my dump matched your checksums and it's the same ringcode", without actually having made a true dump. Outside dumpers that have submitted good honest dumps in some quantity have been invited to the team already.

Here's a little insight of what info I currently keep in an Excel sheet (sorry, formatting gets lost in the forum or I'm too silly to know how to keep it)
I also have most barcode information, but intend to enter it at a later time. Ringcodes are generally good enough to determine different print runs etc. Let me state here also that despite nologic's worries, ringcode information can't be used to identify a dumper. There are many thousands of discs with the same ringcode. He's correct though that same ringcode should always be same checksums, while different ringcodes sometimes have same checksums while other times they don't. See below for ringcode formats we have determined to be likely to checksum match despite being different.
  • Title Catalog No. CD Serial(s) Dump Status Scan Status Dumper A Dumper B Additional Dumpers
    102 Dalmatians-Puppies to the Rescue T-36803N *6S* T-36803N Verified 2352 (dumper names hidden)
    18 Wheeler - American Pro Trucker 51064 (F2297) 51064 06 Verified 2352 (dumper names hidden)
The lists for PAL and USA games are pretty much complete at the moment and I will probably release them in public soon enough. The JPN list is too big and time consuming and I'm still working on it. Unfortunately my time is very limited and it takes longer than what I'd like to finish it. If you want ringcode information for any specific game, feel free to ask me.
(hotaru, hope this covers your question about part no/ringcode database)

Some more info on how we handle ringcodes for the dats:

1) We use the minimum required information in our filename that identifies a dump well enough. This is to make more elegant and shorter filenames.
2) If we come across a dump that has different DATA track version, we use this to identify the game.
Example: MSR PAL has 2 known data revisions, 1.001 and 1.009
Their names in the dats are Metropolis Street Racer v1.001 (2000)(Sega)(PAL)(M4)[!] and Metropolis Street Racer v1.009 (2000)(Sega)(PAL)(M4)[!]. This is enough to tell them apart, without entering the ringcode too in the filename. Same applies for a few US and JPN games too.
3)If all known dumps of a game have the same checksums for ALL their tracks, we don't use ringcode as part of the filename either.
Example: atm we have 3 ringcodes for the japanese version of The House of the Dead. The dumped ringcodes are HDR-0007-0050 1M4 C 93, HDR-0007-0050 1MB4 C 93, HDR-0007-0050 1M5 C 93 but since they all are the same (see below why they match), we just name it House of the Dead 2, The v1.007 (1999)(Sega)(NTSC)(Jp)[!]
We are also aware of a (still unverified) 1.009 version of this game. By point 2, this will become House of the Dead 2, The v1.009 (1999)(Sega)(NTSC)(Jp)[!] when and if it becomes verified.
4) If dumps of a game have different audio tracks for different ringcodes, we use ringcode as part of the filename too, since there's no other way to tell them apart.
Example: South Park-Chef's Luv Shack (US) has 3 known ringcodes atm: *1S* T-8105N, *7S* T-8105N and *8S* T-8105N. Only audio tracks are different between them. Out of those, only the *1S* has been verified. So name becomes: South Park - Chef's Luv Shack v1.000 (1999)(Acclaim)(NTSC)(US)[!][1S T-8105N]
For the same reason, let's imagine that someone submits a different ringcode/audio checksum for House of the Dead 2 JPN I described above (it's quite possible that there exists some HDR-0007-0050 2Mx or 3Mx print run out there...just noone has submitted one yet). When this happens, the name of the verified version will change to House of the Dead 2, The v1.007 (1999)(Sega)(NTSC)(Jp)[!][HDR-0007-0050 1M4, 1MB4, 1M5], as this is the minimum info that will be identifying the game correctly in this case.
Remember filenames only reflect info that is known to us at every specific time. We can't add info for ringcodes we don't know about.
So, if you have a game with different checksums from our dats, submit the information. You will see filenames change to reflect all newly acquired info as we get it.

Further ringcode information we have deduced over the time
PAL games
All seem to have been manufactured in only one factory (EMI Holland according to print on rim). This means there are no audio track differences at all and they are very easy to match. Almost all ringcodes are in this format: (boxcode without ending -XX)-XXXXSS. (X=some number)
Example: Gauntlet Legends (known boxcodes T-9707D-51 and T-9707D-61) ringcode is T-9707D-0237SS in both cases. There's also EMI CD HOLLAND @ X printed on the rim (where X is sometimes different) but this different part seems unimportant. Maybe it indicates different print runs, but as I said, they were all manufactured in one place and hence they have always the same checksums. The ending -XXXXSS seems to be a good separating indicator of all PAL discs ever printed. At some point, I want to compile a list of the discs sorted by this number.

USA games
There are 3 basic formats for the ringcodes and almost all discs conform to one of them (probably shows 3 different factories used in manufacture)
a) *XS* (boxcode+occasionally something more). Examples: *3S* T-1402N (Mr Driller) or *1S* T-9501NAF (Airforce Delta). For these, a different *XS* generally means different audio tracks. *1S* and *2S* are almost certain to have different audio.
b) X(letter)XXX(letter) (boxcode). Examples: 0K018E T-41403N (Championship Surfer) or 1A074E T-1221N and 1A074F T-1221N (Mars Matrix). These generally match their audio even if they have different combination of letters/numbers.
c) %(something pretty much non-standard). Examples: %RAYMAN 2 Z0306N and %RAYMAN 2 Z0307C (Rayman 2) or %26015.8 N0B18B and %26015.8 Z0B20F (POD Speedzone). These also generally match their audio even when different.

JPN games
4 basic formats.
a) <(boxcode)-XXXX>H(letter)XXX(letter). Examples: <T1249M-0757>HL806B and <T1249M-0757>HL807A (Capcom vs SNK 2) or <HDR-0005-0089>HJ603E and <HDR-0005-0089>HJ602E (Giant Gram 2). These generally match.
b) (boxcode)-XXXX MT BXX. Examples: HDR-0027-0276 MT B03 and HDR-0027-0276 MT B04 (Pro Yakyu Team de Asobou) or T-1401M-0130A MT B11 and T-1401M-0130A MT B13 and T-1401M-0130A MT B15 (Soul Calibur). These also generally match.
c) (boxcode)-XXXX X (occassionally some more letters/numbers). Examples: T-40901M-0211A 1 A2 and T-40901M-0211A 1 A1 (Golf Shiyouyo) or HDR-0006-0510 1 (NBA 2K). These also generally match.
d) The annoying ones: (boxcode)-XXXX X(M or MM or MB)X C (something). Examples: T-14302M-0072 2M2 C 93 and T-14302M-0072 3M3 C 95 (Elemental Gimmick Gear) or HDR-0001-0017 1MB3 C 8Z and HDR-0001-0017 2M2 C8Z and HDR-0001-0017 2M3 C 8Z and HDR-0001-0017 3MM1 C 8Z (Sonic Adventure). These only seem to match when the first number of the XMX is the same. Eg 2M1, 2M2 and 2MB3 are all likely to match, while 1M1 and 2M1 will probably not match.

Hope all this info I wasted two hours typing helps someone or makes some of the doubts go away. I decided to take these two hours out of my sleep time to make the community more informed/happier/more trusting/whatever.

If people still don't like what TOSEC/Dumpcast are doing or still believe we are cheating, I couldn't care less. I don't need to prove anything to anyone who doesn't really want to understand TOSEC. Or simply enjoys bad mouthing any effort that turns out above average. Anyone with a minimum amount of wisdom can see, using info I disclosed above, that I know what I'm talking about and that TOSEC has given quite some thought to its' operation methods.
Let me remind everyone that httpd-ack was coded by a TOSEC member and can be used by anyone else to confirm TOSEC dump checksums independently. Most core members are also big collectors that have hundreds of discs. I personally own at least 450 Dreamcast discs, including an almost complete PAL collection and ackmed owns a complete USA collection and about 300 Japanese discs on top of that. Then, what's so strange about being able to verify most of the submissions we get? In most cases, it's only a matter of someone else (anyone!) sending in the 2nd needed dump. If Japanese people want to spend time to help instead of spending time giving us bad reputation, they are most welcome to submit information. It will almost certainly be used to good measure sooner or later.
I know very well we have produced 500+ honestly and truly verified dump checksums in 15 months and at least some people have actually enjoyed using them. If you are not one of them, simply ignore what we are doing here. I'm sure you won't find something equally honest easily.

Thanks to anyone that bothered to read this far.
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Post by hotaru » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:11 pm

@Maddog- proud to be a member. thanks for keeping a tight ship. :)
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Post by atreyu187 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:22 am

This explains why some of the matching dumps I have submitted like Fur Fighters DEMO disc hasn't been verified as a core member of the team didn't dump it at least once. Anyway I can help or become a core member to help aid in verification? I can show pics of all disc dumped and even capture video of SD or BBA dumping as I have a nice capture card if my methods are questionable but I feel I have proven myself to be a valid dumper and not a cheat.
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Post by Maddog » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:50 pm

Don't worry. You don't need to prove anything more, your dumps speak for themselves. :D
Not to mention the fact that you are putting up pics of the original disc, give ringcodes and other info that is hard to get if you don't own the original and also make your dumps public. I can't really see of many ways to "cheat" with this behavior and I trust your dumps 100%. In that sense, you are a "core" member already. :)

What we have been trying to protect ourselves (and everyone that uses our dats...) from, is people that appear out of nowhere and say that they have made X dump without any kind of proof. TBH, no such attempts have been made in recent years and DC was never much of a target for them anyway (probably due to the special requirements for dumping GD-ROMs) but in past years we had our share of people that grabbed some random Saturn (or other readily available and easily dumpable system) from a torrent and came over claiming they "dumped" it.

An example of a DC game I'd regard with suspicion is if someone with 0 dumps before appeared suddenly and claimed they have verified your Get Bass 2 submission. Since the .gdi is public, anyone could download it, copy the info and pretend he dumped it too. But if I get a verification from someone that has proven he CAN dump, I'd accept it.

As for the Fur Fighters Demo Disc, I have another dump somewhere, it just slipped my mind and I haven't checked it yet. I have a family and many real life problems, so these things happen and maybe I don't always add stuff as fast as I should or as people would like. I so much wish I was 10 years younger and with less obligations! Now that I am reminded, I will check ASAP. :)
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Post by atreyu187 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:09 am

Thanks for explaining that and I have a wife and child as well so I know how the family thing since to take your time. I just thought I have stumbled upon something. I'm in no hurry I'm gonna see I don't use any of these for emulation. I rip them just to share nothing else.
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