Pope calls gay marriage evil

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Post by farrell2k »

greay wrote:
farrel2k wrote: Not allowing them to marry does not make them less equal. The equality argument does not apply. Gay couples have all the same rights as unmarried couples. No one is being discriminated against.
As I said before, yes, you can love and share your life with someone without people being married. Some people choose to do so. Some people aren't afforded the privelege of a choice, which isn't right.

And I should add, whether you define marriage as a right or a privelege (I'm granting you that it's a privelege, not a right), not allowing a certain class of couples the privelege of marriage is still discrimination. Gay couples do not have the same rights as married couples. NOT EQUAL. Most would marry if given the opportunity. We're trying to fix that.
Yes they do. They have all the same rights as married couples. I will admit that they do not receive all the same benefits of marriage, tax benefits come to mind, but none of their rights are being refused. Gay couples have the same rights as single heterosecual couples, and married couples for that matter. It doesn't matter how you look at it, or how you feel about it. No one has the right to marry. It is perfectly and legally acceptable to regulate privileges to certain groups. Blind people cannot have drivers licenses, and same-sex people are not given marriage licenses. Not having these privileges does not violate any of their rights, despite how emotional you are about it. Gay couples have all the same rights as single, heterosexual couples.

You and 138 should be arguing to make marriage a right, via an amendment to the constitution. When that happens, state govts will be forced to marry whomever wishes to marry.
toastman wrote: farrell2k, stop ignoring things as you see fit. You take what you want out of a post and then casually discard the rest without regard to any relevant points therein.
I'll ignore points that are not valid, whn I see fit, such as: " Gays are being discriminated against, because they do not have the right to marry whomever they want." - Marriage is not a right, and no one has the right to marry whomever they want, so the argument is not valid.

I can't marry my sister, and you can't marry the two beautiful twins next door, despite the fact that we love them more than anything. Are we being discriminated against?
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Post by Ex-Cyber »

I'm still not quite getting a few of these arguments:

- If homosexual sex is somehow "objectively wrong" because reproduction is impossible, and our laws are simply reflecting that, shouldn't marrying any person incapable of siring or bearing children be illegal? If not, why should the lack of reproductive capacity apply only to the evaluation of same-sex marriage?

- If bans against same-sex marriage do not discriminate against anyone because everyone has the right to marry a partner of a particular "class" as defined by the state, how is the state's power to define that class as "opposite sex" distinct from its power to define it as, for example, "same income class" or "different eye color"? Additionally, should we trust the government to make sane decisions as to the definition of "sex" in the context of phenomena such as transsexuality, hermaphroditism, and asexuality?

- If same-sex marriage is contrary to the traditional definition of marriage and our laws simply reflect that, why should we allow the government to codify and enforce tradition?
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Post by farrell2k »

Ex-Cyber wrote:I'm still not quite getting a few of these arguments:

- If bans against same-sex marriage do not discriminate against anyone because everyone has the right to marry a partner of a particular "class" as defined by the state, how is the state's power to define that class as "opposite sex" distinct from its power to define it as, for example, "same income class" or "different eye color"?
It is not. If one could get his or her state constitution ratified to dictate such, it would be law. I doubt that would ever happen, however, as marriage has never been defined on such a precise level. It has always been just man and woman.
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Post by TreyDay »

toastman wrote:TreyDay, for all your talk of "keeping it real", you are the most stereotypical person on this board. Honestly, do they make you in a factory somewhere?
But I DO bring up some good points. It's just I don't put it in some "uncle tom" "media friendly" way. I keeps it real. And I tell it how it is. :idea:
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Post by Ender »

Unfortunately, pretty much everybody's arguments in this thread are moot. If there are two kinds of rights, legal and moral, there is no way to argue the point.

If we say that something is morally right or wrong, it is largely opinion-based, and therefore can't really matter in a society if we ignore the laws.

If we say that something is legally right or wrong, it is. However, I've yet to hear of a government or legal system that doesn't just push its opinions of right and wrong on its people. You can say all that you want that Democracy is the best because at least then in theory you should piss the least amount of people off. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for two very good reasons: most people are sheep, and a large amount of the population doesn't vote. Real representation isn't reasonable, so one cannot accurately say that "this embodies the majority opinion of the population."

So, rather than this thread going on as it has been, I'll give you another option. Answer the following question instead.

Why do you feel that you are entitled to push (or try to - because it really is pushing, whether right or wrong - legally or morally) your beliefs on others?
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Post by TreyDay »

Ender wrote: So, rather than this thread going on as it has been, I'll give you another option. Answer the following question instead.

Why do you feel that you are entitled to push (or try to - because it really is pushing, whether right or wrong - legally or morally) your beliefs on others?
It's my right as an American.

And also, if we didn't push our beliefs, then whose beliefs should we push? Should I push the beliefs I don't believe in?
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Post by Ender »

TreyDay wrote:
Ender wrote: So, rather than this thread going on as it has been, I'll give you another option. Answer the following question instead.

Why do you feel that you are entitled to push (or try to - because it really is pushing, whether right or wrong - legally or morally) your beliefs on others?
It's my right as an American.

And also, if we didn't push our beliefs, then whose beliefs should we push? Should I push the beliefs I don't believe in?
As far as the "my right as an American," you realize that attitude is why a lot of the world doesn't look kindly towards you right?

And is it impossible to not push beliefs at all?

Any other replies?
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Post by farrell2k »

Ender wrote:Unfortunately, pretty much everybody's arguments in this thread are moot. If there are two kinds of rights, legal and moral, there is no way to argue the point.
We only have legal rights. Unfortunately, too many do not truly understand what rights are, so they'll make things up. Moral right are legal rights that pertain to copyright, so I really have no idea what whoever started mentioning moral rights is babbling on about.
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Post by Roofus »

TreyDay wrote:
toastman wrote:TreyDay, for all your talk of "keeping it real", you are the most stereotypical person on this board. Honestly, do they make you in a factory somewhere?
But I DO bring up some good points. It's just I don't put it in some "uncle tom" "media friendly" way. I keeps it real. And I tell it how it is. :idea:
You really don't. Every time you post, you contradict something you said before. And I don't buy your "keepin it real" thing. Someone as hardcore ghetto gangsta as you probably wouldn't spend all day on a video game board.
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Post by Zealous zerotype »

Roofus wrote:
TreyDay wrote:
toastman wrote:TreyDay, for all your talk of "keeping it real", you are the most stereotypical person on this board. Honestly, do they make you in a factory somewhere?
But I DO bring up some good points. It's just I don't put it in some "uncle tom" "media friendly" way. I keeps it real. And I tell it how it is. :idea:
You really don't. Every time you post, you contradict something you said before. And I don't buy your "keepin it real" thing. Someone as hardcore ghetto gangsta as you probably wouldn't spend all day on a video game board.
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Post by TreyDay »

Roofus wrote:
TreyDay wrote:
toastman wrote:TreyDay, for all your talk of "keeping it real", you are the most stereotypical person on this board. Honestly, do they make you in a factory somewhere?
But I DO bring up some good points. It's just I don't put it in some "uncle tom" "media friendly" way. I keeps it real. And I tell it how it is. :idea:
You really don't. Every time you post, you contradict something you said before. And I don't buy your "keepin it real" thing. Someone as hardcore ghetto gangsta as you probably wouldn't spend all day on a video game board.
Keepin it real does not mean keepin gangsta. Keepin it real is just being who you are. That's the problem with most white people. They just don't understand so they make things up about things they know nothing about. Especially fat white people.
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Post by Roofus »

TreyDay wrote:Keepin it real does not mean keepin gangsta. Keepin it real is just being who you are. That's the problem with most white people. They just don't understand so they make things up about things they know nothing about. Especially fat white people.
You would know, wouldn't you? You're probably the fattest whitest guy here.
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Post by TreyDay »

Roofus wrote:
TreyDay wrote:Keepin it real does not mean keepin gangsta. Keepin it real is just being who you are. That's the problem with most white people. They just don't understand so they make things up about things they know nothing about. Especially fat white people.
You would know, wouldn't you? You're probably the fattest whitest guy here.
I would know more than your fat white ass. There's no probably about it. You are the fattest white guy on this board. Damn, EvilN says he lost weight. Why can't your fatass?

You fat nerd. Quit wearin your mama's bra.
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Post by toastman »

farrell2k wrote:Moral right are legal rights that pertain to copyright, so I really have no idea what whoever started mentioning moral rights is babbling on about.
Whoa.
I'm sorry but with that statement you have just invalidated any arguement you may make in the future and every arguement you have made in the past. You clearly do not know what's going on if you seriously belief what you just wrote.
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Post by Roofus »

TreyDay wrote:
Roofus wrote:
TreyDay wrote:Keepin it real does not mean keepin gangsta. Keepin it real is just being who you are. That's the problem with most white people. They just don't understand so they make things up about things they know nothing about. Especially fat white people.
You would know, wouldn't you? You're probably the fattest whitest guy here.
I would know more than your fat white ass. There's no probably about it. You are the fattest white guy on this board. Damn, EvilN says he lost weight. Why can't your fatass?

You fat nerd. Quit wearin your mama's bra.
Perhaps, but unlike EvilN, I don't give a shit what people on the internet think of me.

But we're not talking about EvilN, are we? Or me for that matter. Right now, we're talking about how you're some 12 year old fat white loser who desperately wishes he was black. G-G-G-G-G-G G-UNIT!
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Post by TreyDay »

Roofus wrote:
TreyDay wrote:
Roofus wrote:
TreyDay wrote:Keepin it real does not mean keepin gangsta. Keepin it real is just being who you are. That's the problem with most white people. They just don't understand so they make things up about things they know nothing about. Especially fat white people.
You would know, wouldn't you? You're probably the fattest whitest guy here.
I would know more than your fat white ass. There's no probably about it. You are the fattest white guy on this board. Damn, EvilN says he lost weight. Why can't your fatass?

You fat nerd. Quit wearin your mama's bra.
Perhaps, but unlike EvilN, I don't give a poop what people on the internet think of me.

But we're not talking about EvilN, are we? Or me for that matter. Right now, we're talking about how you're some 12 year old fat white loser who desperately wishes he was black. G-G-G-G-G-G G-UNIT!
Well, I guess we are talking about you. fat, white loser? Yeah, that really sounds like you.
Why don't you stop eating? Put down the fork, you pig. And stop eatin pork, you cow.

I bet you got one big titti and one little titti. We should start callin YOU Biggie Smalls. I ain't talkin about Wendy's. I'm talkin about yo fat ass.

You so fat, you play hopscotch like this "New York, Chicago, Texas, Colorado."

I bet when you go swimmin, little kids be like "Mommy, look at that pink whale!" or "I thought Barney was purple, not pink."

I bet when you wear a red shirt, everybody be like "Hey Kool-aid! Kool-aid. Hook me up wit a glass! I'm thirsty!" And then you go over there and hand them a glass of kool-aid and say "oh yeah". obese ma fucker.

And I don't care if you think I'm white. People have seen my pictures. They know what I look like.

And another problem with your flames. They're not real. See, when I talk about how fat you are, that hurts you for real cuz it's funny AND true. When I call you a nerd, hurts too cuz it's true. When you say I'm white or fat or any stupid shit like that, I'm like "okay?" But you, when you read my shit, you all cryin in a corner. Stop cryin. Fat people look even worse when they cry. But since you're lonely, nobody cares. Not that you're always going to be lonely. I'm sure one day, you'll find a man who loves those breasts of yours and are willing to embrace them. And maybe, if same-sex marriage is legalized, you and him can live happily ever after. It's possible. You just gotta have hope. Roofus! Keep the hope alive!
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Post by Tyne »

I think this topic should be locked.
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Post by OneThirty8 »

farrell2k wrote:
greay wrote:
farrel2k wrote: Not allowing them to marry does not make them less equal. The equality argument does not apply. Gay couples have all the same rights as unmarried couples. No one is being discriminated against.
As I said before, yes, you can love and share your life with someone without people being married. Some people choose to do so. Some people aren't afforded the privelege of a choice, which isn't right.

And I should add, whether you define marriage as a right or a privelege (I'm granting you that it's a privelege, not a right), not allowing a certain class of couples the privelege of marriage is still discrimination. Gay couples do not have the same rights as married couples. NOT EQUAL. Most would marry if given the opportunity. We're trying to fix that.
Yes they do. They have all the same rights as married couples. I will admit that they do not receive all the same benefits of marriage, tax benefits come to mind, but none of their rights are being refused. Gay couples have the same rights as single heterosecual couples, and married couples for that matter. It doesn't matter how you look at it, or how you feel about it. No one has the right to marry. It is perfectly and legally acceptable to regulate privileges to certain groups. Blind people cannot have drivers licenses, and same-sex people are not given marriage licenses. Not having these privileges does not violate any of their rights, despite how emotional you are about it. Gay couples have all the same rights as single, heterosexual couples.
Rights are moral or legal entitlements to have or do (something). Marriage, therefore, fits the definition of a right as it is something which some people are legally entitled to, even though it is not afforded to everybody. The benefits that come with marriage are also rights, as they are the things that you are entitled to as a married couple. And, gay couples do not have the same rights as most single, heterosexual couples. Most single, heterosexual couples meet the legal qualifications which get them to the right to get married, provided they aren't related or already married to other people.
farrell2k wrote: You and 138 should be arguing to make marriage a right, via an amendment to the constitution. When that happens, state govts will be forced to marry whomever wishes to marry.
Marriage already is a right by definition. You have insisted that it is a privilege, but a privilege is by definition a 'special right.' Also, ammending the Constitution should not be needed thanks to this piece of brilliance here:
The Bill of Rights wrote: Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
farrell2k wrote:
toastman wrote: farrell2k, stop ignoring things as you see fit. You take what you want out of a post and then casually discard the rest without regard to any relevant points therein.
I'll ignore points that are not valid, whn I see fit
Ignoring points or facts that are irrelevant is one thing, and not a particularly good way to win an argument. Ignoring facts on the basis that you cannot effectively argue against them, which is what you are most obviously doing, is another. If any of us raise points which you feel to be invalid, then it is upon you to demonstrate effectively how they are invalid. You have not done this.
farrell2k wrote:" Gays are being discriminated against, because they do not have the right to marry whomever they want." - Marriage is not a right, and no one has the right to marry whomever they want, so the argument is not valid.

That argument is not only valid, but is certainly not the only example of one you've ignored. In fact, you have not ignored that argument. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you only recognize a small subset of the entire category of 'rights,' and used that narrow view to try and argue that marriage is not a right, which it is by definition. If it is a privilege as you claim it is (and I won't dispute that,) then it is also a right. Not everything is as cut and dry as you make it out to be.
farrell2k wrote: I can't marry my sister, and you can't marry the two beautiful twins next door, despite the fact that we love them more than anything. Are we being discriminated against?
Apples and oranges. This is just the same 'slippery slope' argument from another angle, and it doesn't work. Polygamy is a seperate case and must be looked at seperately. If handled properly, it is not inherently dangerous. I am concerned about your desire to marry your sister, though. No doubt you love her very much, but your children will be much more likely to have birth defects than those of a couple who is not related.
toastman wrote:
farrell2k wrote:Moral right are legal rights that pertain to copyright, so I really have no idea what whoever started mentioning moral rights is babbling on about.
Whoa.
I'm sorry but with that statement you have just invalidated any arguement you may make in the future and every arguement you have made in the past. You clearly do not know what's going on if you seriously belief what you just wrote.
I agree with toastman.
Ender wrote: So, rather than this thread going on as it has been, I'll give you another option. Answer the following question instead.

Why do you feel that you are entitled to push (or try to - because it really is pushing, whether right or wrong - legally or morally) your beliefs on others?
Is that question directed at both sides? If I am forcing my beliefs on somebody it is because I feel that they are using their beliefs to justify the maltreatment of others, and I am perfectly justified in forefully opposing such intolerant behavior.
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Post by hearld500 »

Tyne wrote:I think this topic should be locked.
Whys that?
It's a discussion.
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Post by Lartrak »

Just because the law doesn't mention "love" in its definition of marriage doesn't mean that that's the most important aspect of it to many people
Marriage is historically about property and other legal matters. Since "tradition" seems to be a big reason for not allowing gays the right to have legally recognized marriages, I think this is worth mentioning.
You know, just because you believe something exists, it really does not mean that it does. You have no rights until you are given them. 200 yrs ago, blacks could not be denied something they did not have, rights. Many fought and died to give them rights.
Your arguing is pointless. You believe in and recognize "natural" or moral rights - farrel does not. There's nothing more to say.
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Is that really how it works? I thought it was just that no blind person could pass a driver's test, not that they were actually denied the right to attempt it. Who knows, maybe someday, we'll have a bunch of Daredevil's driving around...
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