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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:31 pm 
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goatdan wrote:
If Wind and Water isn't selling, or Irides: Master of Blocks isn't selling, I don't blame that on the community not supporting it or me or whatever, I blame that on us not promoting it good enough and that pushes me to come up with new promotions that can work for that. We featured Irides: Master of Blocks for instance at the Midwest Gaming Classic. I would be sold bold right now as to say that it has sold amazingly, but I also would NEVER say that if you don't go buy it, we won't consider any more projects.


I think that puzzle games are hard to sell. And $22 plus shipping (resp. €26 plus shipping for W&W) is more than most people are willing to pay for a puzzle game.

I'd estimate that the limit of what people are willing to pay for a puzzle game would be ~$15.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:16 pm 
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One thing I will never see GSP & RSG do.

goatdan wrote:
No, and it is interesting to me for instance that our entries for games like Feet of Fury and the others got taken down from Wikipedia at the same time the Red Spot Games ones went up, with the notation that our games were not notable for anything.


HOLD ON A TICK, you’re missing the background here completely.

As Dreamer has explained to you, wiki is controlled by anyone who wants to and while I wasn’t as much of a wikipedian back when the pages got deletion started to gain momentum but what had happened was unreleased games such as Age of the Beast, Feet of Fury 2, and all other homebrew pages had their pages created and since 90% of the inde commercial games never came out, the pages were nuked along with the games that didn’t come out. The DC Community fought hard to save Cool Herders but when the DS port never happened the Mods decided to nuke that page as well.

Currently I am working on resurrecting the inde pages, I created Irides and to date aside from bots and people who want to delete it no one else has bothered with it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irides

I can use a little help here, now that DCDAYDREAMER has shown me that the deleted pages still exist, bringing them back will be world’s easier, as you can see from the links he’s provided most of the articles were deleted cause they did not provide necessary references. I work hard on providing references on the RSG games.



Quote:
But, as I've said, I'm *still* working on that. But for updates, I can't imagine every couple months going, "I GOT SOMEONE TO DRAW THE GOAT ASSET WE NEEDED! CHECK IT OUT!" and that exciting anyone


I know what you mean I hate all that stuff to, inde devers really should keep their mouth shut until they’ve completed minimum minimum minimum 50% of the stuff, I’ve seen developers through in the towel cause they show unpolished stuff, people call it crap and they stop designing the game.

Quote:
They said they would then improve the graphics for the games. After we got the disc and we started going through it, Gary and I came up with a HUGE list of issues that the game said, not just to note that it was literally the Game Boy game running emulated.


Emulated you say? So there is hope for the GBA emulator yet.

Quote:
After that, we were told that they did not intend to make any changes to the game, and that we had to choose between publishing it as is or not publishing it at all. The game was not fun at all in it's current state, so Gary and I talked with them and said we could delay it and fix the problems, and they decided not to release it because of that.


Maybe you can release the game whatever state it is in, in the Goat Compilation?

Quote:
Besides that, I had a horrible personal accident happen to me last year. As a matter of fact, it actually really hurt the promotion of Irides: Master of Blocks. On the Saturday of Labor Day Weekend last year, I basically took a spike to my left eye in a bad accident. Since that point, my vision in my left eye is permanently badly damaged (it went from 20/15 without glasses to 20/60 WITH glasses). At the time of the promotions for Irides: Master of Blocks starting, I was literally told that I should not be reading anything and should not have my eyes open for more than five minutes at a time. It was two weeks before I could be back on my feet to go to work or do much of anything.


I can attest that, despite being in all this pain Dan was working with me on the distribution of the game, till his son came along anyway, lol.

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On top of that, I became a father for the first time in January, which for as horrible as the eye thing is, way makes up for it. It's been a blast.


I’ll hold you that; I’ll ask you how much a blast he’s been in 20 years, no wait 15 years.

Quote:
It was interesting to me to see that in the Red Spot Games note, they stated one thing they liked about the new game is that, "We also have been involved to the development process (e.g. voice recordings) and really enjoyed the new experience of participating directly in the production of a new game." That's surprising to me, as every game that we did has a ton of fingerprints from ideas that we had all over it -- although the developer was always told that they had the final say, a lot of things were bounced back and forth and I think it is why the games turned out so well. Maybe the involvement with development is what other developers didn't want from us, but why not push a game to be the best it can be?


I’m going to put this extremely blatantly but RSG News posts are written to excite Noob’s (such as myself :P), who get excited reading their news post. Anybody who knows anything about any entertainment industry would know how much producers/publishers are involved let’s take Sega for example:

When they work with Sumo Digital to port OutRun, Sega does everything except the actual porting that is what they hired the developer for. All the assets of the game are given to Sumo Digital and they work on porting them. Sega handles the games play testing, beta testing, official website, the packaging (manual, cover) every single thing outside the Animation and coding, and SD have little autonomy on the coding and animation as Sega AM-2 will be supervising their port.

When Sumo Digital is making an original game like Sega Tennis , or Sega Racing then all the AM teams are working and supervising them.

So a publishers job is never really limited to publishing, they serve as a producer enabling the director by providing them what they need, and what they should want.

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No problem. More kudos for reading this one too, I guess.

I need some of them Kudos too, I read it all as well…twice.
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If anyone ever wants to get into touch with me, feel free to PM me or email me, which every developer had my address. I am glad to talk about stuff one on one if you like. I'm not making any promises right now that the Dreamcast community will suddenly be hearing tons from us, as while there are things in the pipeline still, as I've said before -- when the developers are very close to releasing them and we feel confident in them, we'll be MORE than happy to promote them. But before that point, we don't want to disappoint everyone by talking about something that isn't a guaranteed lock.
GOAT Store Publishing at a minimum is going to be there to show people that if they want to do something with us, we'll be happy to try our best to make it work if we believe in it too. And, I think and hope that we have some cool stuff up our sleeves :)


Maybe we should make the announcement then?

Christuserloeser wrote:
… Aesthetics. The Japanese Dreamcast template is extremely well designed. And if I could choose I would do the very same thing as Max did, so I can relate to the decision he made in regards to the redspotgames template…

…So I think it was a choice made because of aesthetic preference, not to try to fool customers or resellers. Of course, the side effect of that is that you can put the game onto your shelf right next to your Japanese games.


While he isn’t directly trying to fool them but as the picture posted above shows, he markets his games directly as Japanese games to Japanese gamers (because they offer Japanese translation before English). The Ebay Auctions all state the games as Ntsc/J even though they are region free Pal games (because they are pressed in a Pal Region).
That said, I support Max’s decision as well, it is extremely helpful that I can place any RSG game with the Jap games.


DCDayDreamer wrote:
Wikipedia is maintained by anyone who can be bothered to make an entry and/or edit an entry, the Dreamcast community had enough members to make an entry viable (myself included), it just didn't happen back in 2008. Editors (administration) for Wikipedia are just like everyone else, if they do not know the particular relevance of something they are totally alien to (or if they have a chip on their shoulder), entries get deleted - simple as that!.
Out of interest, the Wind and Water Wikipedia entry was also proposed for deletion on 28 Jul 2008 (before the Dreamcast release).
[/quote]

All entries get proposed for deletion unless they are referenced from noteable sources, DC Emu forum references will only get you so far, but thanks for the deleted pages links, this will make their resurrection really easy.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:43 am 
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There appear to have been two things that people interperted differently than I intended when I wrote them, and this is one of them...

Christuserloeser wrote:
I think that puzzle games are hard to sell. And $22 plus shipping (resp. €26 plus shipping for W&W) is more than most people are willing to pay for a puzzle game.

I'd estimate that the limit of what people are willing to pay for a puzzle game would be ~$15.


I *was not* saying that we felt like the sales of Irides: MoB were unjustly low. All that I said is that we didn't blow our expectations out of the water. But, according to our own projections the game has done very well.

I guess to explain this in more detail, if a game that is released isn't selling enough for your liking, you can blame what you can't control -- the Dreamcast community for not supporting it enough -- or you can blame what you can control, and I think that the promotion of it is a big thing. You can also blame cost completely, or unrealistic expectations.

Regardless, not just am I not blaming the Dreamcast community for "not supporting" Irides: MoB, I'm very happy with what is has sold so far.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:16 am 
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Christuserloeser wrote:
I'd estimate that the limit of what people are willing to pay for a puzzle game would be ~$15.


Irides is avaialble for < 18$ at Play-Asia and if you buy any other goat game you get a $ discount on the combo.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:18 am 
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cube_b3 wrote:
HOLD ON A TICK, you’re missing the background here completely.

As Dreamer has explained to you, wiki is controlled by anyone who wants to and while I wasn’t as much of a wikipedian back when the pages got deletion started to gain momentum but what had happened was unreleased games such as Age of the Beast, Feet of Fury 2, and all other homebrew pages had their pages created and since 90% of the inde commercial games never came out, the pages were nuked along with the games that didn’t come out.


And this is the other thing that people mis-interpreted from me. Where I originally brought this up, I was replying to a statement that had been made that with pioneers, they are often fondly remembered in a small circle and beyond that they are forgotten. My point was not that I feel that there is a conspiracy against us, but that I found it interesting that as the pioneer of all of this, our pages and games were deleted and more or less declared not notable for anything, while the pages for Red Spot Games were created and have stuck around since them.

I do fully know how Wikipedia works, and in many ways I don't like it. For instance, if it is a history of everything, why should any page get deleted ever? Just keep the information there, and if no one references it for anything, then no one references it for anything.

But that's neither here nor there -- the point that I was *trying* to make was that as notable as I think that our releases are, and historically I really do feel there is something to them, for whatever reason the Wikipedia collective found that ours weren't notable, while the Red Spot Games releases for whatever reason are. It was just backing up the fact that pioneers are often forgotten.

Quote:
I know what you mean I hate all that stuff to, inde devers really should keep their mouth shut until they’ve completed minimum minimum minimum 50% of the stuff, I’ve seen developers through in the towel cause they show unpolished stuff, people call it crap and they stop designing the game.


Yup, and that was a huge problem we did by announcing all those games in 2006, very early on in their development cycles. We, unfortunately, took the cue from the four games that had come before, as FoF and Cool Herders were well known in DC circles for years, and Maqiupai and Inhabitants won a contest that was well publicized. So, we thought -- yeah! Put this info up and we'll keep being able to update it, and that just doesn't work when you've got someone working on a non-sexy part of the game, which truthfully is probably 90% of game development time if not more.

Quote:
Quote:
They said they would then improve the graphics for the games. After we got the disc and we started going through it, Gary and I came up with a HUGE list of issues that the game said, not just to note that it was literally the Game Boy game running emulated.


Emulated you say? So there is hope for the GBA emulator yet.


If it wasn't emulated, it ran with the same everything as the GBA game. The only thing that I think was changed was the title screen. But just imagine how a FPS would look on the Dreamcast if you used the GBA's resolution...

Quote:
Maybe you can release the game whatever state it is in, in the Goat Compilation?


Without getting into it too deeply, contractually we can't, or if we did it would cost us an arm and a leg and make it so no one will buy GOAT Games if / when it comes out.

Quote:
Quote:
It was interesting to me to see that in the Red Spot Games note, they stated one thing they liked about the new game is that, "We also have been involved to the development process (e.g. voice recordings) and really enjoyed the new experience of participating directly in the production of a new game." That's surprising to me, as every game that we did has a ton of fingerprints from ideas that we had all over it -- although the developer was always told that they had the final say, a lot of things were bounced back and forth and I think it is why the games turned out so well. Maybe the involvement with development is what other developers didn't want from us, but why not push a game to be the best it can be?


I’m going to put this extremely blatantly but RSG News posts are written to excite Noob’s (such as myself :P), who get excited reading their news post.


I don't wand to go into this any further, but I would be really surprised based on what I have seen if Red Spot Games actually did anything but the pressing and releasing of the titles before this point.


Quote:
Maybe we should make the announcement then?


By announcement, if you're referring to me finding a time to hold a chat with any developer or really anyone who wants to ask me a question, sure. I'm thinking though we may want to do this after we official relaunch GOAT Store Publishing so that people can read through the site before formulating any opinions.

Quote:
Christuserloeser wrote:
… Aesthetics. The Japanese Dreamcast template is extremely well designed. And if I could choose I would do the very same thing as Max did, so I can relate to the decision he made in regards to the redspotgames template…

…So I think it was a choice made because of aesthetic preference, not to try to fool customers or resellers. Of course, the side effect of that is that you can put the game onto your shelf right next to your Japanese games.


While he isn’t directly trying to fool them but as the picture posted above shows, he markets his games directly as Japanese games to Japanese gamers (because they offer Japanese translation before English). The Ebay Auctions all state the games as Ntsc/J even though they are region free Pal games (because they are pressed in a Pal Region).
That said, I support Max’s decision as well, it is extremely helpful that I can place any RSG game with the Jap games.


Sure, but if you fool retailers and print media into thinking that the game is an official release instead of an independent release, it really means that you are not acknowledging the truth behind your project.

Besides that, if you cannot come up with an aesthetically pleasing template on your own so you have to wholesale copy another template to come up with something nice, then I think you have issues. While the GOAT Store Publishing titles do not match the standard releases, I don't think that their design is unappealing at all. It's just that when you look at your collection, if you have GSP games, you can identify them immediately whether on a shelf or looking at the covers. If you have RSG games, they blend perfectly with the Japanese Dreamcast games.

So, maybe he did do his design just to be aesthetically pleasing, and the fact that it confuses customers, retailers and print media and in turn hurts us trying to sell games that identify what they are on the cover and spine immediately is just a nice bonus for RSG to be able to sell more games that way while 'hurting' their competitor. The ONLY reason that RSG can use this template is because Sega opted not to sue them over it. Based on the laws of 'fair use' and the DMCA and everything that we had to pay to learn, there is absolutely no leg for the RSG release to stand on in court for using that design.

Aesthetically pleasing or not, the only way that we can produce Dreamcast titles is to ensure that we do everything by the book. Perhaps this is because we paid to create the book, while RSG just followed and since they don't have a huge investment behind the production of their titles, if they were sent a cease and desist order, it would have been a relatively small loss, where if we would have been hit with the same thing, we would have had to write off a number well into the five figures.

I guess that's what sucks about being the pioneer.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:45 am 
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Dan wrote:
For instance, if it is a history of everything, why should any page get deleted ever? Just keep the information there, and if no one references it for anything, then no one references it for anything.


We try to keep Wikipedia a reliable source of history, it is an open encyclopedia anybody can put anything they want, somebody may very well edit Pakistani history and write our president was George W. Bush, to stop these shenanigans new/unknown information requires multiple reliable references.

If you visit pages on politics, you will have > 3 references for one sentence.

Also noteability is important other wise every TDH (tom, dick & harry) will be making their own wiki pages, and throwing their lifestories their, accomplish something noteable in life and maybe someone will make an article for you.
Quote:
But that's neither here nor there -- the point that I was *trying* to make was that as notable as I think that our releases are, and historically I really do feel there is something to them, for whatever reason the Wikipedia collective found that ours weren't notable, while the Red Spot Games releases for whatever reason are. It was just backing up the fact that pioneers are often forgotten.


Give me alittle time, pioneers won't be forgotten, back then had somebody made your articles well refrenced they would still be around.

Thing s will be extremly easy to set right once GSP launches, with all the information avaiable, it will be impossible to delete your pasges, and also remember that all inde dc pages are frequently threatened, I have them on my watch list and regularly update them so that it doesn't happen, just help me out with the development history of Irides, I never played DCsquares.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:07 am 
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goatdan wrote:
So, maybe he did do his design just to be aesthetically pleasing

What is so aesthetically pleasing about RedSpotGames becoming WhiteSpotGames when you look at the spine?. :?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:46 am 
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cube_b3 wrote:
Dan wrote:
We try to keep Wikipedia a reliable source of history, it is an open encyclopedia anybody can put anything they want, somebody may very well edit Pakistani history and write our president was George W. Bush, to stop these shenanigans new/unknown information requires multiple reliable references.

If you visit pages on politics, you will have > 3 references for one sentence.

Also noteability is important other wise every TDH (tom, dick & harry) will be making their own wiki pages, and throwing their lifestories their, accomplish something noteable in life and maybe someone will make an article for you.


No no, I get that -- but here's the thing, who is determining if something is 'notable' or not? I can't say that we made the pages or have edited the pages -- I've never touched Wikipedia other than reading stuff, and it's always fascinated what goes there and what doesn't, as well as what gets updated and what doesn't (IE the Midwest Gaming Classic has a big ol' entry on it, but it was last updated about four or five years ago I'm guessing). Regardless, I feel that instead of drawing lines in the sand of, "This one is, this one isn't" by just looking at them individually, I think that some criteria should be put in about everything.

So, either all Dreamcast independently published titles are notable and therefore are listed as such, or none of them are and nothing is listed. Having the decision made, in what seemed completely arbitrarily to me, that the games we released were not notable while the games that Red Spot Games did release are... it just seems strange. They are both the same thing more or less, either pick that none of these are important enough to note, or decide they all are important enough to note.

Regardless, my entire point here had to do with the pioneers being forgotten, and the fact that this part of history was more or less written out. Adding it back in would be great, although to be fair I feel that me having to mention that I'm disappointed that they are gone before people realize they should be added back in is disappointing.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:18 am 
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Danny as I am trying to tell you it is the references that determine, what is noteable and what isn't, look:

This is the FOF Deleted Page:
http://deletionpedia.dbatley.com/w/inde ... et_of_Fury

Their is no argument that of any homebrew or inde release of this decade has to be the premiere CA title. But the article has nothing, it might as well not exist it has no references aside from the official website.

The criteria of noteability states article should have primary and secondary references, secondary references provide more noteability as it shows others are noting it, rather than the source. Yes, FOF is exponentially noteable in contrast to any inde title even if it isn't an inde game is noteable for being the only international dance pad game on the system but the problem is the article, it was useless and a bizzarre reference of DDR acknowledging the game doesn't help at all.

Edit: Fixed link
Now this is the article which is close to proper quality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Rush_Rally_Racing

I've discussed development, gameplay, and reception. These three components are essential criteria for videogames and as you can see the deleted FOF article didn't have them.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:00 pm 
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Well, I've got nothing else to lose, so here's something I want to get out of my chest:
goatdan wrote:
As for the other 12, it would have been better for all concerned if those weren't mentioned.

goatdan wrote:
I'd love for us to be remembered in a more positive light, but the error of the games announcement in 2006 is in many ways our legacy - we hyped up people for something that we had no control over delivery of

goatdan wrote:
Yup, and that was a huge problem we did by announcing all those games in 2006, very early on in their development cycles. We, unfortunately, took the cue from the four games that had come before, as FoF and Cool Herders were well known in DC circles for years, and Maqiupai and Inhabitants won a contest that was well publicized. So, we thought -- yeah! Put this info up and we'll keep being able to update it, and that just doesn't work when you've got someone working on a non-sexy part of the game, which truthfully is probably 90% of game development time if not more.

By the time I canceled that game in 2007 I was desperate. Canceling it was my last attempt at making a certain person understand where I was trying to get. This person was someone who I've invited to help me develop that game.

Working on that game was a horrible experience. Besides my own personal problems, by the time I've started working on it I didn't have enough experience with teamwork. After getting the guy on board, working on that game became harder and harder.

The guy simply didn't want to work. He didn't want to let me work either. He would cling on me all the time to make me teach him my own part of the work instead of doing his own. He wouldn't let me have my own decisions. He became very angry at me when I've spent a whole day working nine hours straight to fix the problems in his part of the work, because despite him not fixing anything and not making any kind of progress during several weeks, he didn't want me to help him doing his part of the work - even though my own part of the work depended on that.

I've lost an insane amount of months simply trying to motivate the guy to make his own part of the work, that he promised he would do. I've tried explaining everything to him as best as I could in a million different ways. I've tried everything to make him understand not only how to improve his work but also why it was important to improve it, and despite that I've had to improve and fix most of it on my own.

I fully understand the criticism over the first screenshots we released. Some of them were important, and helped me to notice some slight changes that had to be done. However, I was pretty much the only one doing them.

What was worse was to think about the criticism we would get if I allowed that co-worker of mine to turn the game into the ripoff he wanted. It was painful to see him delivering assets that were a direct translation of the design of the assets of his favorite fighting game. It was painful to have him trying to persuade me to implement all of his "ideas" for the gameplay, which were basicly the gameplay mechanics of that same favorite fighting game of his. It was painful to see that he didn't have much care for making anything original, and it was even more painful to have to turn down most of the work he submitted to me, which resulted in us having very little to use in the game.

I've lost enough because of that. I have lost all the time I could have used programming the game better - yes, the technical difficulties I've mentioned in previous comments were only so difficult because I've had no time left to do my own work. I have lost the respect of many friends. I have lost my honor, for I have not delivered what I promised. By that time in the middle of 2007 I had decided to take all the blame upon me since it was me who invited him to the project. Since it was me who invited him to the job, I got afraid of telling him that he was simply not suited for it. And I've lost a lot more in my life after that.

It's funny to live in a country that simply has no culture of developing games. It's funny to get people to help us on a game and then to have them call our vision stupid because we're taking our work seriously.

That experience has taught me a lot, but there's no way to ease the pain.

Which is probably an indication that I shouldn't be here. I have many good memories about this community, and it's those memories that always bring me back.

I actually wrote all of the above in this post yesterday, but there's something else that have come up to my mind after reading this article.

I have been "punched in the face" for far too long. I have always willingly taken all the blame for that because I didn't know how to deal with it in any other way.

It pains me to learn that the reason why I had decided to take all the blame is because I was being too forgiving. Forgiving of someone who in the end demonstrated that he just wanted to punch me in the fucking face. This is what was making me desperate during the development of that game.

My mistake was that by publicly canceling that game I've hurt Dan, the GOAT Store and the whole community much more than I could ever hurt that guy. I should have eliminated him from the team as soon as I could but I had no experience to know when it was too soon and when it was too late. I didn't want to be unfair - which probably helped to make things worse for the GOAT Store, since Dan had no way to see what was happening.

The funny thing is that despite of all that, that co-worker was a good personal friend. And I didn't want to lose his friendship, but when it became clear to him that I wouldn't let him into my work again he started ignoring me. It seems that being just a friend of mine wasn't worth much after all.

These facts are much fucking uglier than anyone had expected and I'm tired of keeping them inside of me. I have been pretty much sabotaged in the work that I love the most. And to this day I hadn't told anyone about this.

Whatever.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:13 pm 
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cube_b3 wrote:
Danny as I am trying to tell you it is the references that determine, what is noteable and what isn't, look:

This is the FOF Deleted Page:
http://deletionpedia.dbatley.com/w/inde ... et_of_Fury

Their is no argument that of any homebrew or inde release of this decade has to be the premiere CA title. But the article has nothing, it might as well not exist it has no references aside from the official website.

The criteria of noteability states article should have primary and secondary references, secondary references provide more noteability as it shows others are noting it, rather than the source. Yes, FOF is exponentially noteable in contrast to any inde title even if it isn't an inde game is noteable for being the only international dance pad game on the system but the problem is the article, it was useless and a bizzarre reference of DDR acknowledging the game doesn't help at all.

Edit: Fixed link
Now this is the article which is close to proper quality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Rush_Rally_Racing

I've discussed development, gameplay, and reception. These three components are essential criteria for videogames and as you can see the deleted FOF article didn't have them.


No, and again -- I'm not denying why the articles were removed, but I have always found it interesting that at the same time that people put up pages for the Red Spot titles, no one ever found it important enough to fix the pages for the games that we did.

Maybe it was because Red Spot themselves put them up, maybe it was because we burned all of our goodwill with the community by announcing the titles we were planning on doing and then not coming through, or maybe it was because people just didn't feel that our games were important enough, our pages (until perhaps now that I pointed it out) do not exist, while pages do exist for the Red Spot titles. I'm NOT arguing that the pages needed more work or that there was a conspiracy or whatever, I AM arguing that no one really noticed they were gone. Which, to my, says a lot.

Again, as I was initially replying to -- The pioneers are often forgotten except for in a small circle of people. I just think this is a case of that.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Manoel wrote:
My mistake was that by publicly canceling that game I've hurt Dan, the GOAT Store and the whole community much more than I could ever hurt that guy. I should have eliminated him from the team as soon as I could but I had no experience to know when it was too soon and when it was too late. I didn't want to be unfair - which probably helped to make things worse for the GOAT Store, since Dan had no way to see what was happening.

The funny thing is that despite of all that, that co-worker was a good personal friend. And I didn't want to lose his friendship, but when it became clear to him that I wouldn't let him into my work again he started ignoring me. It seems that being just a friend of mine wasn't worth much after all.


Manoel,

First and foremost, you didn't hurt me or the GOAT Store at all -- the announcement of all the games that we made was something that we thought would be really cool and would really get a lot of the community behind us supporting all the new releases, and the plethora of games with one central location for information would help to feed the interest in all of the games. What we didn't think about was that if personal things came up with people, as they did with many people, what that would mean to the excitement level -- that it would crash and burn, and because we had absolutely nothing to show for our promise because we couldn't control what we had promised that people would still associate the games not coming out with us, and blame us for not delivering.

As I hope that you heard me say, and I definitely feel that it is true -- these games are fun, and real life is more important always. I have absolutely no ill will toward you or anyone else who didn't finish a title they had started. Sometimes, things come up -- you have someone you're working with who turns out to be a turd, or you get shot in the eye with a spike, or whatever -- and ultimately, those things are more important than figuring out something that is fun.

Fightoon is undeniably the most gorgeous "homebrew" title that I have ever seen in motion. What you were able to pull off you should have absolutely no shame that you didn't finish, but instead should be extremely proud of what you did. The game remains an absolute technical marvel to me, and I'm glad we got to see what of it we did.

It's people like yourself who truly help the community, and again there is no shame in not being able to finish something. I'm just sorry that we may have raised expectations unrealistically for other people about when the game would be finished, and perhaps exacerbated the problems you were having by adding more pressure to the development cycle.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:47 pm 
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goatdan wrote:
DCDayDreamer wrote:
goatdan wrote:
...I blame that on us not promoting it good enough...
A truer statement never typed.

GOAT was the basis of something unique, that does not mean it still can not fulfill the dream, but you guys really need to get to grips with the current retro climate.
I don't exactly know again what you mean by this...

goatdan wrote:
Regardless, my entire point here had to do with the pioneers being forgotten, and the fact that this part of history was more or less written out. Adding it back in would be great, although to be fair I feel that me having to mention that I'm disappointed that they are gone before people realize they should be added back in is disappointing.

Putting back a few Wikipedia pages is only the beginning Dan, let us look at the basic facts here:

A quick visit to the RedSpotGames site and RSG has twitter, RSG has facebook, RSG has flickr, RSG has YouTube, RSG has ebay, now let's round it all off with Social Bookmarking and an RSS feed. Exactly how much does all that advertising and 'word of mouth' promotion cost Dan?. Whilst the GOAT slept RSG made numerous announcements (true or false is irrelevant), but by using the 'trendy' tools out there, RSG can easily exploit the current retro climate.

goatdan wrote:
What Red Spot Games did was nothing short of miraculous -- I don't deny that.

Think it through again from a different perspective Dan (not a negative one), and I am sure that you will see there was no miracle involved whatsoever.

Manoel wrote:
My mistake was that by publicly canceling that game I've hurt Dan, the GOAT Store and the whole community much more than I could ever hurt that guy. I should have eliminated him from the team as soon as I could but I had no experience to know when it was too soon and when it was too late. I didn't want to be unfair - which probably helped to make things worse for the GOAT Store, since Dan had no way to see what was happening.

The cancellation of Fightoon did not hurt the community Manoel, it was obvious you had good reason to cancel but nobody knew why back then, sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with the whole thing, and I hope that experience does not taint the rest of your outlook in life.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:26 pm 
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DCDayDreamer wrote:
Putting back a few Wikipedia pages is only the beginning Dan, let us look at the basic facts here:

A quick visit to the RedSpotGames site and RSG has twitter, RSG has facebook, RSG has flickr, RSG has YouTube, RSG has ebay, now let's round it all off with Social Bookmarking and an RSS feed. Exactly how much does all that advertising and 'word of mouth' promotion cost Dan?. Whilst the GOAT slept RSG made numerous announcements (true or false is irrelevant), but by using the 'trendy' tools out there, RSG can easily exploit the current retro climate.


Twitter only works with people following your threads. The GOAT Store actually does have a Twitter page, although we aren't exploiting it that much as of night now. Yes, we don't have a flickr page, but what does that matter? For YouTube, I don't deny for a moment that having videos of gameplay would be a nice bonus. The GOAT Store has sold on eBay, but we don't usually do it. Yup, we don't have a facebook for this. We do have an RSS feed, although I don't know if it is still listed as a standalone since the site redesign.

But, what you're missing is that the GOAT Store itself is a MUCH bigger web page than everything that RSG has put together and has done. On top of that, the Midwest Gaming Classic is one hell of a large "retro climate" event that -- guess what -- the people who you apparently believe have no idea how to get in touch with that community run this event that is the largest retro game gathering out there, period.

So yes, we aren't tweeting for our 25 followers out there, and we haven't focused on putting up tons of stuff on YouTube for 100 people to view, but we have a web page that gets hundreds of unique visitors every single day and run a gaming event that draws thousands of people, including dozens of retro gaming vendors - both of which have mailing lists that we use all the time and have a very solid number of people signed up for. Oh yeah, and if you listen to podcasts, we also appear on those to promote the games.

I believe that we do a fine job of "exploiting the retro climate". And, I guess I'm sorry if your problem is that we need to make 400 Dreamcast announcements every month, regardless of if they are true or not. We learned a few years ago to only make announcements when things are ready or need an announcement.

Would it be better for me to come up with overblown statements about our games and post them? Something tells me that the same people who pass off the RSG's news announcements as "just business" would call me to task if I came out and announced similar stuff.

Quote:
Think it through again from a different perspective Dan (not a negative one), and I am sure that you will see there was no miracle involved whatsoever.


What different perspective do you want? It was basically miraculous the amount of coverage that Red Spot Games was able to get for Rush Rush when it was released. And the truth is, nothing that you named above was because of the coverage that they received. If anything, they grew their followings with those tools that they were using because of the coverage that they were able to obtain through the promotion that they got Rush Rush. Who just randomly looks up Red Spot Games and joins their twitter feed? They had to have something to promote to get people's interest.

Do you really take us to be so stupid as to not know how to promote anything? Is it that you are disappointed that we run the GOAT Store and the Midwest Gaming Classic, both of which are extremely important aspects to the business that we run and therefore, we focus a lot of attention on them? That doesn't mean that we don't 'exploit' things correctly, in fact I think that if you take a look at it from a different perspective (not a negative one) at the synergy that we can create by running all of these, I'm sure that you will see that we do a fine job with it all.

In the latest open letter, Max mentioned that all their money had gone to these big game conventions where they publicized their titles. We *run* the big game convention -- and although it may not get as many people to it as the one that Max goes to, ours specifically caters toward the type of gamer that might just purchase what we're selling.

But hey, I guess my problem is that we should have tweeted 20 more times.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:09 pm 
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goatdan wrote:
Twitter only works with people following your threads. The GOAT Store actually does have a Twitter page, although we aren't exploiting it that much as of night now. Yes, we don't have a flickr page, but what does that matter? For YouTube, I don't deny for a moment that having videos of gameplay would be a nice bonus. The GOAT Store has sold on eBay, but we don't usually do it. Yup, we don't have a facebook for this. We do have an RSS feed, although I don't know if it is still listed as a standalone since the site redesign.

So what you are saying here is you have dabbled with some tools but have not exploited them to the same capacity as RSG.

goatdan wrote:
But, what you're missing is that the GOAT Store itself is a MUCH bigger web page than everything that RSG has put together and has done. On top of that, the Midwest Gaming Classic is one hell of a large "retro climate" event that -- guess what -- the people who you apparently believe have no idea how to get in touch with that community run this event that is the largest retro game gathering out there, period.

But, what you're missing is that RSG is getting down to 'business' and not getting bogged down with being 'disappointed' whilst harping on about the success of MGC.

goatdan wrote:
So yes, we aren't tweeting for our 25 followers out there, and we haven't focused on putting up tons of stuff on YouTube for 100 people to view, but we have a web page that gets hundreds of unique visitors every single day and run a gaming event that draws thousands of people, including dozens of retro gaming vendors - both of which have mailing lists that we use all the time and have a very solid number of people signed up for. Oh yeah, and if you listen to podcasts, we also appear on those to promote the games.

That in itself is a nice promotional statement - so why isn't that anywhere else apart from here?.

goatdan wrote:
I believe that we do a fine job of "exploiting the retro climate".

So quit the envy over RSG then!.

goatdan wrote:
And, I guess I'm sorry if your problem is that we need to make 400 Dreamcast announcements every month, regardless of if they are true or not.

Your words, not mine!.

goatdan wrote:
We learned a few years ago to only make announcements when things are ready or need an announcement.

But you still haven't learnt to KEEP ON promoting your products the same way as RSG have you?.

goatdan wrote:
Would it be better for me to come up with overblown statements about our games and post them? Something tells me that the same people who pass off the RSG's news announcements as "just business" would call me to task if I came out and announced similar stuff.

Statements do not have to be overblown, but statements do get publicity.

goatdan wrote:
What different perspective do you want? It was basically miraculous the amount of coverage that Red Spot Games was able to get for Rush Rush when it was released.

It's all about exploiting the retro climate, I've already given you a few tips, if you really need to find out how it was done just Google and do some research.

goatdan wrote:
And the truth is, nothing that you named above was because of the coverage that they received.

Really?, you obviously didn't follow how that coverage was spread.

goatdan wrote:
If anything, they grew their followings with those tools that they were using because of the coverage that they were able to obtain through the promotion that they got Rush Rush.

So learn how they did it, you stated that RSG used what GOAT had spent a lot of money on, just use the groundwork that they have mapped out now.

goatdan wrote:
Who just randomly looks up Red Spot Games and joins their twitter feed? They had to have something to promote to get people's interest.

So pick something and promote it.

goatdan wrote:
Do you really take us to be so stupid as to not know how to promote anything?

Your words again Dan, not mine!.

goatdan wrote:
Is it that you are disappointed that we run the GOAT Store and the Midwest Gaming Classic, both of which are extremely important aspects to the business that we run and therefore, we focus a lot of attention on them? That doesn't mean that we don't 'exploit' things correctly,

RSG is neither the GOAT Store or MGC, and it is not me who keeps repeatedly posting the word 'disappointed'.

goatdan wrote:
in fact I think that if you take a look at it from a different perspective (not a negative one) at the synergy that we can create by running all of these, I'm sure that you will see that we do a fine job with it all.

I did not say that you were not doing a fine job with 'running all of these', but it's obvious you have a problem with negative comments.

goatdan wrote:
In the latest open letter, Max mentioned that all their money had gone to these big game conventions where they publicized their titles. We *run* the big game convention -- and although it may not get as many people to it as the one that Max goes to, ours specifically caters toward the type of gamer that might just purchase what we're selling.

If it's working for you Dan, keep it up!.

goatdan wrote:
But hey, I guess my problem is that we should have tweeted 20 more times.

Every little helps.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:13 pm 
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Although I agree with the fact that RSG does market their games in a prolonged way... they are still marketing Wind & Water, and they've distributed Dux + Wind & Water, Last Hope Pink Bullets + W&W, R4 + Puru Puru + W&W, R4 + Extension Cable + W&W.

They've jumped through a lot of hoops to get the cursed game to sell and it would be nice if GSP can have some unique exclusive Goat Store offers to get their games to as many people as possible.

That said, what Dan is trying to tell you is that he is more proactively involved in the retro video game scene, than just promoting Goat Store Publishing, he doesn't feel it is necessary to tweet every single drop of news. His news posts are less quantity and more substance.

Also several marketing gimmics have back fired such as their false claims, and those W&W gameplay video, no body knew prior to those videos that the game started development as a Master System title and is running ona master system emulator on Dreamcast.
He does not make news posts of a game having a fan made wall paper, or tweet about every single review, he makes the news post when a game is going to be pressed, most of RSG news isn't even true they claim that R4:RE is sold out yet they are selling it on ebay at insane prices (it is double the price of what they sold the deluxe edition for on ebay), I decided to remove this out of his open letter...

Never mind i'll pm you.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:50 pm 
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DCDayDreamer wrote:
So what you are saying here is you have dabbled with some tools but have not exploited them to the same capacity as RSG.

Sure, and others we've exploited far better than them. There are only so many hours in a day, and you have to pick and choose what battles you fight. Using methods that do not get nearly the return on investment that other methods do isn't smart, it's stupid.

Quote:
But, what you're missing is that RSG is getting down to 'business' and not getting bogged down with being 'disappointed' whilst harping on about the success of MGC.

I came on here to explain my statement. I said that I am disappointed with how this all turned out because of the thousands of dollars that we have put into it, and how because I am a fan of the Dreamcast I stupidly and naively gave away those thousands of dollars worth of work. I'm not disappointed in our game sales, quite the opposite.

Quote:
That in itself is a nice promotional statement - so why isn't that anywhere else apart from here?

What do you find to be the nice promotional statement? Buy our Dreamcast games, we do a bunch of other cool stuff? Doesn't work that way.

Quote:
So quit the envy over RSG then!

Complimenting a competitor does not equal envying a competitor.

Quote:
But you still haven't learnt to KEEP ON promoting your products the same way as RSG have you?

Funny, we *just* ran a promotion for Feet of Fury at Big Bang in Ottuwma, Iowa this weekend. But, I didn't feel the need to tweet about it and post it all over the GOAT Store, because the goal isn't to tell the same people that have already bought the game about how now we're going to bundle it with something else.

I feel that we did a really good job marketing Feet of Fury and every release that we have done. We focus our money on promoting them to new potential customers, instead of focusing on the same group of people who are the hardcore fans. As a business, it doesn't make sense. For the GOAT Store, which carries a ton more than just the games we have done, it makes little sense to continue to promote the fact that we have the same thing over and over and over.

This is common sense business stuff. At the end of the day, it would hurt the rest of our business if we neglected it and instead focused entirely on Dreamcast promotions. And, although we don't promote our Dreamcast products with a new special every week or two or whatever, the fact is that because we continue to have new customers come to our site and learn about the products that we have, I have zero issues with how we do things.

If you do, don't buy from us. That's the most potent way to get someone to change their ways.

Quote:
It's all about exploiting the retro climate, I've already given you a few tips, if you really need to find out how it was done just Google and do some research.

I respect your opinions, I really do, but I don't think that you have any idea what we built up and how we do things, or else you would definitely not be thinking that what we did was so horrible.

Quote:
So learn how they did it, you stated that RSG used what GOAT had spent a lot of money on, just use the groundwork that they have mapped out now.

To do what? Is your suggestion that we sell the GOAT Store and just focus on publishing? The only reason *any* independent games have come out for the Dreamcast period is because we used what we had accomplished with the GOAT Store and leveraged that to start the Dreamcast publishing. The money came from the business of the GOAT Store itself. Again, you have to be in the situation where you look at all of your resources and figure out how to do it best, and I'm not concerned about that...

Quote:
So pick something and promote it.

Okay, just for the record in the past two months...

GOAT Store News:
GOAT Store Sponsors Big Bang | 2010.08.05
GOAT Store Announces Upcoming Relaunch of GOAT Store Publishing | 2010.08.03
More than 100 Imports Added | 2010.07.11
Free Order Pick Up for Video Game Summit Showgoers | 2010.07.09
Front Page and Product Categories Updated | 2010.07.02

Midwest Gaming Classic news:
Midwest Tetris Championship to be Expanded | 08/08/2010
VGEvo Events to Anchor Events-within-an-Event Again | 08/05/2010
Museum Slated To Return | 08/04/2010
MGC News Starts Early This Year | 08/01/2010

We've also been working on huge cross promotions with the Midwest Gaming Classic (and the GOAT Store too) that will be revealed later this week, and have at least two planned GOAT Store announcement not tied to that which will probably run this week.

If you are one of the thousands of people who receive our emails, you would have gotten additional info in your email box about these. During this time, we have also distributed flyers at two video game shows.

Between the two sites, we've had six announcements in the month of August, which is double what Red Spot Games has had so far. If you just look at the GOAT Store site, we're one less than them. July was different, we did three, Red Spot Games did seven -- but, we spent a ton of time that month working on behind the scenes stuff including these cross promotions that required meetings and whatnot, and will result in a bunch of announcements this month. So I really don't feel like our frequency of promotions is any issue here.

Quote:
I did not say that you were not doing a fine job with 'running all of these', but it's obvious you have a problem with negative comments.


I have no problem with negative comments, I have problems with ignorant comments. Your posts made it out that we needed to be led around by the hand to be shown this great new world of marketing that apparently Red Spot Games had discovered and we hadn't.

If you had said, "Why haven't you explored mediums that Red Spot Games uses, like Twitter, FaceBook and YouTube?" I would have replied with the reasons that we don't use those. Instead, you blamed us for poor promotion of Irides: Master of Blocks, and then stated, "you guys really need to get to grips with the current retro climate." That's not a negative comment, that's an ignorant comment to what we actually do, and if you actually don't know because you don't follow us -- as is apparent or you would have known how much news we pump out on average -- then I would suggest before you make a comment like that to actually look into it or ask.

I'll say it again, we are only two people and we run a lot of different stuff. We have to balance time, money and resources to devote to everything that we do. While we have enjoyed every moment of Dreamcast Publishing, it is not the only thing that we do. Because of that, a lot of our promotional muscle is focused on other things, but because of the synergy that we have between everything that we do, we have what both Gary and I believe is an extremely synergic-stic network of promotional tools, so when we use them to promote things that we do, we get a much bigger bang for the buck than if we do a ton of small things.

When you have one project that you are doing every quarter and that is really the only thing that you are doing, it makes sense to generate news like what Red Spot does. I am in no way jealous of them for having to do that, and would much rather utilize the networks that we have developed in other ways to sell our products.

Pretending for a moment that instead of being insulting, you were merely suggesting those methods, I'll run through each with true pros and cons to them. You can reply to them if you like, and I will happily and seriously consider any and all comments that you or anyone else makes in the future as we come up with additional marketing plans.

Twitter - The Midwest Gaming Classic has Twitter and so does the GOAT Store, although the GOAT Store's actually doesn't tie into anything yet and I'm not sure if the MGC page does either. We have this on our list to update them when we get a chance to and integrate them into the news releases so that any time we post anything, it Tweets everyone automatically but our focus right now has been on other aspects of the business. For the GOAT Store, we recently redesigned our front page, are 98% through with a checkout redesign and have a list of about 10 other things that we definitely want to incorporate first -- including pictures for every item we carry and more information on every system we carry -- that we feel will increase the site's usefulness to browsers. Once all that is done, which I'm guessing will be later this year, we'll work on Tweeting, with the MGC site probably getting this upgrade first.

Facebook - The MGC does have a Facebook page, the GOAT Store does not at this time. The Facebook page is relatively new, we've actually hosted a MySpace page for a much longer time (over 2500 followers, I believe). We haven't done one yet for the GOAT Store because, frankly, both of us find it hard to keep multiple pages of the same content updated. The MGC MySpace and Facebook pages have been run for us by others basically, which has helped. We have, however, used Facebook advertising for both the GOAT Store and the Midwest Gaming Classic in the past, which is one of the most cost-effective advertising methods out there we have found.

Flickr - Rarely does anyone stumble across a Flickr picture and then go to a site because of it. Instead, they are often looking for the particular item in question and they happen to show up at Flickr. For our way of thinking, it is better to host your own pages of pictures so that when people go searching on a site like Google to find your pictures, they go directly to your site and not an in-between. It works the same for showing people pictures on your site, we feel that instead of driving them to another site, it is best to keep them at your own. The GOAT Store picture stuff we're working on is designed with the same principal.

YouTube - For the GOAT Store, we've only never used YouTube because the stuff that we have carried other than the GOAT Store Publishing games I have no time to make a video for them all and post and link to them. I'm all for embedding videos on the site -- in fact, we have done this with the Midwest Gaming Classic already -- but we haven't done our own channel just because of this. I'd love to eventually get some stuff out there for gameplay videos of the GOAT Store Publishing games, and I wish that we had more time to do that before Irides: Master of Blocks was released.

eBay - eBay is an expensive, expensive way to sell products, and one which does not get a return to your own web site from the sale of those products. We have sold many things on eBay, and never once did we get a follow up purchase from our site. With the amount of money that eBay takes, it makes a LOT more sense for us to drive them to our own site to find the products they are looking for and keep that amount of money for ourselves, or for advertising or whatever. This also doesn't even touch on how much time it takes to list products individually for sale.

Social Bookmarking - The Midwest Gaming Classic site utilizes Delicious, Digg, StumbleUpon and Reddit. These are also all on the charts to get integrated with the GOAT Store site, and are sitting probably right after the Twitter upgrade.

RSS feed - http://www.midwestgamingclassic.com/News/rss/ and http://www.goatstore.com/news/rss/ The GOAT Store did lose the link for this on the front page with the latest update and the link is obviously not working right with the new news system. I really didn't realize that until today, so we'll get that back up sooner than later.

Thanks for those suggestions, we try to do what is the best upgrades for each thing that we do, and what isn't even in here is all of the cross-promotion that we do where we often involve both the GOAT Store and the Midwest Gaming Classic at the same time. Just wait until everyone sees what we have up our sleeves for an event on September 3rd and another on November 5th, neither of which have been announced yet but they both should come out this week. We've got some cool stuff up our sleeves!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:44 am 
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Regarding YT: I don't think you need to produce videos for a GOAT Publishing channel. You could add existing videos to your favorites, or ask the authors for the original master copy to upload them to your channel.

Here are a couple of fine trailers for GOAT's games:





And then there are fan videos:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:59 am 
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With the exception of Irides, none of the videos are any where near the right quality to be uploaded on GSP official channel.

The Cool Herders video has little next to no audio, and the FOF fan video is amature, if it was a tv show with a proper camera, and properly recorded gameplay video it would've been considerable.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:51 am 
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Just an example. The Cool Herders video has audio but it's too quite. With access to the master copy it'd be no problem to adjust the volume in Virtual Dub.

The fan video could be added to the channel's favorites.

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