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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:21 pm 
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OneThirty8, i know what is Free Software, i agree with Richard Stallman about that every human knowledge must be free (in fact i'm Marxist), but this is not a conversation about copyrights (or copylefts) but just a flame war that Quzar and BlackAura has against Dreamcast.es people, i don't know why and i don't want to know. Just stop it, it's just a game that i can bet that nobody of you has tested in the DC (or if you do never say an "hey good work", "i hate it", "it sucks" or whatever).

I AGREE THAT THE ALLEGRO SOURCE MUST BE RELEASED, not for complain Quzar and Blackaura, just to make that other people in the scene (or not) can use it, modify it and improve it, that's FREE SOFTWARE, the licenses are just to protect this ideas from the capitalism.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:48 pm 
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Guaripolo wrote:
OneThirty8, i know what is Free Software, i agree with Richard Stallman about that every human knowledge must be free (in fact i'm Marxist), but this is not a conversation about copyrights (or copylefts) but just a flame war that Quzar and BlackAura has against Dreamcast.es people, i don't know why and i don't want to know. Just stop it, it's just a game that i can bet that nobody of you has tested in the DC (or if you do never say an "hey good work", "i hate it", "it sucks" or whatever).

I AGREE THAT THE ALLEGRO SOURCE MUST BE RELEASED, not for complain Quzar and Blackaura, just to make that other people in the scene (or not) can use it, modify it and improve it, that's FREE SOFTWARE, the licenses are just to protect this ideas from the capitalism.

Once again, note that I am NOT BlackAura, nor have I ever been. I hold nothing against the people of dreamcast.es, except that with the current distribution of this particular project (and any other GPLed projects that are linked against Allegro-DC), they are violating the GPL.

How you see this as a flamewar or attacking I don't know. I saw NOBODY attacking dreamcast.es, but I do see a lot of you attacking Quzar and I. Quzar simply asked how one would go about compiling the source if it wasn't available, which is not flaming in the least. However, both yours and Neoblast's response to Quzar's post WAS at least somewhat inflammatory.

My posts have not been flaming at all, yet you're attacking me? I fail to see how this is at all productive, and I furthermore fail to see how my posts are inflammatory (they're just pointing out the situation from my eyes). I do however feel that I'm being unfairly attacked for explaining the situation in the simplest possible terms I can, and I don't particularly appreciate it.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:22 pm 
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Man, I wasn't even complaining about the license, I'm totally used to stuff coming from dciberia not having sources and whatnot. The only thing I was wondering about was that this is the first time I've actually seen one say 'just build it yourself', so I was wondering how that was possible without allegro, or if you're now actually handing it out.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Quzar wrote:
Man, I wasn't even complaining about the license, I'm totally used to stuff coming from dciberia not having sources and whatnot. The only thing I was wondering about was that this is the first time I've actually seen one say 'just build it yourself', so I was wondering how that was possible without allegro, or if you're now actually handing it out.

Yeah, I always wonder where the source code is with the release of any homebrew project that doesn't seem to have a source release. I'm just so used to releasing my code and being able to look at code by others that the thought of not releasing source code to something feels like a really foreign idea to me.

Guaripolo wrote:
I AGREE THAT THE ALLEGRO SOURCE MUST BE RELEASED

Right, so we agree. That's really all anyone is after here. :-)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:00 am 
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I absolutely understand your arguments regarding the unreleased Allegro-DC, but I don't get why you do have to turn it into such a flame-war. The game was very well received in the Dreamcast community, many players had a lot of fun with it. In fact, it was downloaded 100 times from SEGA-DC.DE alone, which is a lot for a Dreamcast game. Allegro-DC will be released sooner or later, the original authors are fine with the current situation, many users like the game, there would have been no problem.
You guys haven't written OpenSonic. Neoblast is an official team member of Open Sonic now (check http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/home/contact.php) and isn't this a enough of a sign that the OpenSonic team doesn't care? I think they are the only ones that could possibly bitch about that, so why do YOU care?

Just wait a month or so, and this problem will be solved. But this just makes another coder stop developing for our beloved Dreamcast.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:03 am 
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Maturion wrote:
I absolutely understand your arguments regarding the unreleased Allegro-DC, but I don't get why you do have to turn it into such a flame-war.
The only ones turning this into a flame-war are the ones protesting it. Those of us asking for the code are being level-headed and calm, but being flamed for it. What is being done right now is illegal and against the spirit of free software. I, as a developer of GPLed software, do not feel that its appropriate to violate the GPL for any period of time, and I am executing my right as a end user of the program in question to request the source code. This right is given to me under the GPLv2 with no specification that I must wait a month to get it.

Quote:
The game was very well received in the Dreamcast community, many players had a lot of fun with it. In fact, it was downloaded 100 times from SEGA-DC.DE alone, which is a lot for a Dreamcast game.
That's great, what does it have anything to do with the situation that EVERY SITE THAT IS HOSTING THIS GAME IS VIOLATING THE GPL?

Quote:
Allegro-DC will be released sooner or later,
When is sooner or later? Three months from now? Three years from now? Never? We don't know, but it doesn't matter anyway, the license to Open Sonic is being violated, and I don't appreciate that I am being denied my rights guaranteed under the GPLv2.

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the original authors are fine with the current situation, many users like the game, there would have been no problem.
There is a problem, the law is being violated. I have seen nothing from the original authors of Open Sonic saying publicly that all of these sites hosting Open Sonic are free to distribute it in violation of the GPLv2. All we have is your word that the original authors are fine with the current situation. How do I know that they know that Allegro-DC isn't open-source at the moment? Have they publicly given permission for this component of the program to be left out from any source release?

Quote:
You guys haven't written OpenSonic. Neoblast is an official team member of Open Sonic now (check http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/home/contact.php) and isn't this a enough of a sign that the OpenSonic team doesn't care? I think they are the only ones that could possibly bitch about that, so why do YOU care?
Ok, that's great, but where's the Open Sonic team's GPL exception allowing Allegro-DC to be linked with the rest of the Open Sonic code without source? There isn't one. I as a user of GPLed software have the right to ask for this code, and I don't appreciate you telling me I don't. YOU have no right to tell me I don't have the right to obtain the source code. YOU have nothing to do with the project at all. In fact, I have much more to do with the project, since it is based on KOS. I (as well as Quzar and OneThirty8) have written code that is in Open Sonic for the Dreamcast right now (a simple pass through sh-elf-strings confirms this, if you know what to look for, at least in my case). Granted, KOS is distributed under a license that doesn't require source to be released for derivative works, but you can't say that I've had nothing to do with this project.

Quote:
Just wait a month or so, and this problem will be solved. But this just makes another coder stop developing for our beloved Dreamcast.
The GPL does not tell me I must wait a month for the source code. I've issued my demand under the GPLv2 for the source code. To tell the truth, I don't give a damn if someone stops developing for the Dreamcast, if they're going to stomp all over the spirit of free software anyway. I'm willing to accept that maybe it was a misunderstanding of the license, but they continued protest is what's driving me insane. Beyond that, none of the protest to releasing the source code is actively coming from anyone involved with the project. Its all coming from people who have nothing to do with it other than having downloaded it.

Simply put, Maturion, why are you protesting this? I've explained my reasoning quite thoroughly several times in this thread, but you have yet to tell me why you're protesting my, and others, demands for the source code? You realize that without the free software movement that much of this stuff wouldn't exist at all, yes? If all of the world stomped upon the free software movement in the way that the whole debacle over Allegro-DC is, there would be no way to port software like this, and likely things like KOS wouldn't even exist at all. Is that really the way you want the world to be?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:02 am 
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Quote:
spirit of free software

Did you read Marx? do you know who Paulo Freire is? do you know what happened in Chile the 11/09/1973? do you understand why Bobby Fischer and Charles Chaplin (and many other people) was pursuit by the Government of USA? Do you know what is Telesur? Do you know who is Evo Morales, Fidel Castro Ruz, Hugo Chavez, Mario Benedetti, Noam Chomsky.
Well if you know all that, maybe you can understand the spirit of free software in his real conception, not in the context of the capitalism.

Quote:
I am executing my right as a end user of the program

Have you ever played the game in DC?

Quote:
I don't give a damn if someone stops developing for the Dreamcast

That makes total sense.

Quote:
Those of us asking for the code are being level-headed and calm

well, read the previous quotes. Still being calm?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:22 am 
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Guaripolo wrote:
Quote:
spirit of free software

Did you read Marx? do you know who Paulo Freire is? do you know what happened in Chile the 11/09/1973? do you understand why Bobby Fischer and Charles Chaplin (and many other people) was pursuit by the Government of USA? Do you know what is Telesur? Do you know who is Evo Morales, Fidel Castro Ruz, Hugo Chavez, Mario Benedetti, Noam Chomsky.
Well if you know all that, maybe you can understand the spirit of free software in his real conception, not in the context of the capitalism.

Quote:
I am executing my right as a end user of the program

Have you ever played the game in DC?

Quote:
I don't give a damn if someone stops developing for the Dreamcast

That makes total sense.

Quote:
Those of us asking for the code are being level-headed and calm

well, read the previous quotes. Still being calm?

I'm not standing up for anyone here, but please stop the flaming.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:30 am 
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Guaripolo wrote:
Quote:
spirit of free software

Did you read Marx? do you know who Paulo Freire is? do you know what happened in Chile the 11/09/1973? do you understand why Bobby Fischer and Charles Chaplin (and many other people) was pursuit by the Government of USA? Do you know what is Telesur? Do you know who is Evo Morales, Fidel Castro Ruz, Hugo Chavez, Mario Benedetti, Noam Chomsky.
Well if you know all that, maybe you can understand the spirit of free software in his real conception, not in the context of the capitalism.
I understand the spirit of free software in the context of the world that I live in. The world that exists today and what may be the ideal world of free software are two different things. I am a realist, and an author of free software. That is enough to cement my understanding of free software. I do not believe the stance you've stated is the ideal world for free software, just to straighten that out. Other people are free to believe what they want, but I believe in the rule of law, as it currently exists, and its statement on the subject.

Quote:
Quote:
I am executing my right as a end user of the program

Have you ever played the game in DC?
I have indeed attempted to play the game, however the manner in which it is distributed (the unscrambled binary doesn't come with the data files needed to play, and I cannot burn a CDI as I do not use Windows), prevents me from actually enjoying it, other than seeing some debug messages come out on the dc-tool terminal. I have run the program, and that is enough to consider me an end-user.

Quote:
Quote:
I don't give a damn if someone stops developing for the Dreamcast

That makes total sense.
Way to take one of my quotes from my reply completely out of context. I'm not even going to dignify this with a response beyond that.

Quote:
Quote:
Those of us asking for the code are being level-headed and calm

well, read the previous quotes. Still being calm?
That's me losing my patience. Notice how I haven't called you names nor have I called Neoblast names, in fact, I still think I'm being a whole hell of a lot more level headed than anyone protesting my request for the source code. I'm not flaming, I'm stating my stance as a person holding a valid license to use this program. A license that states certain privileges that I have that are being ignored/violated. I'm stating my stance as a realist and a developer of free software. I'm stating my stance as a person that realizes that much of the useful software in this world is not free or open-source, and I realize that this will always be the case.

There's always a difference between the ideal world and the real world. One has to learn to live with these differences. I however refuse to believe that not releasing the source to Allegro-DC (which even you agree that the source must be released) makes this world any better.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:00 am 
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In case anyone is interested in an outsider non-militant opensourcer's opinion, I registered here just so I can post this.

For the health of your community, you absolutely need the Open Sonic's developers' public and unambiguous approval to distribute binaries built upon their components without adherence to the GPL. Otherwise, you're stomping all over their rights. This isn't a mere technicality, this is a simple matter of politeness. They attached conditions to the use of their source code by choosing the GPL which you have ignored. That is rude of you.

Furthermore, while you are violating the letter of the GPL law by failing to provide the allegro port source, you are also flagrantly violating the _spirit_ also by refusing to supply the prebuilt static lib when requested. It is not sufficient to refer users to a 3rd party: it is your responsibility to provide what is necessary to get the software building in form similar to the binaries you provided, or else you are not permitted to have released those binaries to begin with. You know, if you could at least post buildable source, then some other asshat could post a binary build and you could disclaim responsibility.

When one of those two conditions are met, I think you will at least be behaving as a good faith ethical player in the open source community, though I will leave it to others with a fetish for hyperenforcement of the GPL to explain precisely (again) how you have failed to dot any I or cross any T. Which you have done, of course, though that concerns me less than the appearance of a crop of programmers who do not take this shit, or their community-mates, seriously.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:28 am 
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I played the game and I think it's great! but it definitely does not run at 60fps yet. It seems more like 20fps. The frame counter however says it's 60/60, which likely is a bug.
Other than that I should mention that I tested it in VGA mode only, so I guess it's possible that it might perform different in SDTV mode.

Either way, I am really, really glad to see OpenSonic running on Dreamcast and I hope that you will find the time and motivation to optimize the port to improve its performance. If you can get this to run at 60fps with one of the later releases I am sure that we will see many many homebrew games using this engine.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:32 am 
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Quote:
Ok, that's great, but where's the Open Sonic team's GPL exception allowing Allegro-DC to be linked with the rest of the Open Sonic code without source? There isn't one. I as a user of GPLed software have the right to ask for this code, and I don't appreciate you telling me I don't. YOU have no right to tell me I don't have the right to obtain the source code. YOU have nothing to do with the project at all. In fact, I have much more to do with the project, since it is based on KOS. I (as well as Quzar and OneThirty8) have written code that is in Open Sonic for the Dreamcast right now (a simple pass through sh-elf-strings confirms this, if you know what to look for, at least in my case). Granted, KOS is distributed under a license that doesn't require source to be released for derivative works, but you can't say that I've had nothing to do with this project.


Well, firstly I didn't tell you you don't have the right to obtain the source code. I just think your claims are a bit mean in this case. I absolutely agree you have contributed way more to the Dreamcast scene and to KOS as well than I do (actually, I haven't contributed anything). I didn't even know you were a KOS contributor. Sorry.

Quote:
The GPL does not tell me I must wait a month for the source code. I've issued my demand under the GPLv2 for the source code. To tell the truth, I don't give a damn if someone stops developing for the Dreamcast, if they're going to stomp all over the spirit of free software anyway. I'm willing to accept that maybe it was a misunderstanding of the license, but they continued protest is what's driving me insane. Beyond that, none of the protest to releasing the source code is actively coming from anyone involved with the project. Its all coming from people who have nothing to do with it other than having downloaded it.

Simply put, Maturion, why are you protesting this? I've explained my reasoning quite thoroughly several times in this thread, but you have yet to tell me why you're protesting my, and others, demands for the source code? You realize that without the free software movement that much of this stuff wouldn't exist at all, yes? If all of the world stomped upon the free software movement in the way that the whole debacle over Allegro-DC is, there would be no way to port software like this, and likely things like KOS wouldn't even exist at all. Is that really the way you want the world to be?


Of course I support free software and I do also absolutely understand your reasoning. I also explained my point of view more than one time. Please don't see this as a personal offense against you or anyone asking for the source. I really admire what the free software movement has achieved. I also can't tell you what to demand or not demand, but I just think it's very mean in this specific case. I mean, it wouldn't have been necessary to start this unhealthy discussion, if you (and others) had not asked for the source of allegro-dc. I don't say you didn't have the right to do so.

There are not many dreamcast developers left, we should really try not to reduce their number by "flaming" them - although I agree that you may have a valid reason to do so.

But as said, this is just my point of view. I will stop posting in this thread for now, as I don't have to do anything with this project and my personal opinion is not really necessary here.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:49 am 
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I didn't respond about the game directly before but I have played it too, it does run very well and I'm sure it'll be 'teaked' to iron out the few bugs eventually.

Neoblast wrote:
if you want them ask for them

Can I have the Dreamcast Allegro source please?, I will be happy to put the download on DCEvo along with a mirror of the OpenSonic CDI.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:40 am 
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Maturion wrote:
Of course I support free software and I do also absolutely understand your reasoning. I also explained my point of view more than one time. Please don't see this as a personal offense against you or anyone asking for the source. I really admire what the free software movement has achieved. I also can't tell you what to demand or not demand, but I just think it's very mean in this specific case. I mean, it wouldn't have been necessary to start this unhealthy discussion, if you (and others) had not asked for the source of allegro-dc. I don't say you didn't have the right to do so.
The only unhealthy part of this discussion is the fact that the sources haven't been produced, and people are still yelling at those of us asking for them. If the whole world just turned a blind eye to this kind of abuse of the GPL, then the free software world would die. It is not mean: it is following the letter of the GPL. It is something I am willing to fight for. I've asked, and been attacked for it. I intend to keep asking until I get what I have the right to get.

Quote:
There are not many dreamcast developers left, we should really try not to reduce their number by "flaming" them - although I agree that you may have a valid reason to do so.
This is the same reasoning that was applied back in the day when reaper refused to release source. It wasn't a very good reason then, and it certainly isn't one now. I'm not flaming anyone, I asked for the source code, and I was attacked for it. You'll notice that the only "attacking" I am doing is in a purely defensive posture. I'm not intending to drive anyone away from the community, or else my continued work on KallistiOS would be for nothing. I'm just asking for what I am given the right to under the law, it is as simple as that.

I will say it once more: please produce the sources that the GPL requires to be produced. I would like in accordance with the GPLv2, the complete and total source needed to build this program, including any auxiliary libraries, in the exact versions as they were used to build the binary that I have obtained.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:40 pm 
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The open software movement is great, but it's meaningless without a corresponding change in the total mindset with which we approach creative works.

If people are going to be dicks about open source software just like they're dicks about copyrighted material, then I have no sympathy for them. They are not even in the same open source movement as I am and I would feel no responsibility to honor their requests or their licenses.

Maybe instead of being dicks about this stuff, you could build bridges and treat each other with respect. Then something good might actually get done and none of us would have to worry about the fucking "letter of the law" ever again.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:56 pm 
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Sweater Fish wrote:
If people are going to be dicks about open source software just like they're dicks about copyrighted material, then I have no sympathy for them. They are not even in the same open source movement as I am and I would feel no responsibility to honor their requests or their licenses.
But it's well within their right to ask (and perhaps later demand) that the source code be provided (which is what the GPL is about)
Quote:
Maybe instead of being dicks about this stuff, you could build bridges and treat each other with respect. Then something good might actually get done and none of us would have to worry about the fucking "letter of the law" ever again.
Agreed, but, that stance may be a bit too optimistic. The GPL itself assumes trust in no one to "do the right thing." It quite literally forces your decision in whether or not you want to provide the source. That said, in communities where people can usually be trusted to "do the right thing," yes, a little courteous goes a long ways, but that goes both ways. So, when someone asks for the source, which they're entitled to, there shouldn't be any reason for argument or discussion about it.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:47 pm 
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losinggeneration wrote:
Agreed, but, that stance may be a bit too optimistic. The GPL itself assumes trust in no one to "do the right thing." It quite literally forces your decision in whether or not you want to provide the source. That said, in communities where people can usually be trusted to "do the right thing," yes, a little courteous goes a long ways, but that goes both ways. So, when someone asks for the source, which they're entitled to, there shouldn't be any reason for argument or discussion about it.


Well...from the creator of GPL:

"All society is based on trust and good will. Most people don't kill and steal, not because they are afraid of the law or police. They don't because it's just wrong, and they just don't want to do it! Trust and good will is the norm, and everything else is an exception." - Richard Stallman


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:05 pm 
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Sweater Fish wrote:
The open software movement is great, but it's meaningless without a corresponding change in the total mindset with which we approach creative works.

If people are going to be dicks about open source software just like they're dicks about copyrighted material, then I have no sympathy for them. They are not even in the same open source movement as I am and I would feel no responsibility to honor their requests or their licenses.


Up until the last little bit, all of that applied to the spanish side extremely well from my point of view. They are simply not in the same mindset of fostering free and open exchange of ideas, but instead focused only on delivering an end product. There seems to be no issue with taking the works of an 'outsider' (someone not DC related) and (ab)using it in any way, but if someone were to take the works of another, it would probably be high crimes and result in flaming everywhere.

I'm not passing judgement, but simply pointing out my observation that it seems as though the two groups who have had issues with one another for the past 4 years seem to simply be operating under different sets of moral and ethical guidelines. This, combining with a language barrier, makes what should be good faith discussions ('hey, it says we can compile it on our own, how can I get a copy of allegrodc?' 'oh, just ask fulano over there and he'll be happy to give you a copy') into name calling and whatnot.


or something.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:13 pm 
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All that is left to happen is for AllegroDC to be immediately released. If that is not going to happen then there is no point in bickering further about it..whether it be who is in the wrong or right based on the rules(GPLv2 or what not), voicing your opinions/feelings, etc because it looks like it is not going to change anything. JUST TAKE SWIFT ACTION! (Talking to both sides). Either report them (who ever they are; I distinctly remember a address to report it to for GPL) or release the source for AllegroDC. Close this thread if the AllegroDC is not released and take your conversations to PM's...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:15 pm 
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BB Hood wrote:
All that is left to happen is for AllegroDC to be immediately released. If that is not going to happen then there is no point in bickering further about it..whether it be who is in the wrong or right based on the rules(GPLv2 or what not), voicing your opinions/feelings, etc because it looks like it is not going to change anything. JUST TAKE SWIFT ACTION! (Talking to both sides). Either report them (who ever they are; I distinctly remember a address to report it to for GPL) or release the source for AllegroDC. Close this thread if the AllegroDC is not released and take your conversations to PM's...

I disagree with taking the discussion to PMs. Discussions like this require public notice, and confining it to PMs will likely degrade the conversation further into flaming.

My US$0.02.


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