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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:38 pm 
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DCDayDreamer wrote:
goatdan wrote:
So, I ask again -- what do you want from me?


What do I want from you? hmmm, let me see now...

How about a signed copy of Feet of Fury?

I wouldn't have posted about the re-launch of Goat Store Publishing at DCEvo if I didn't accept GOAT (not that DCEvo gets many visitors these days, so don't expect hordes of hits from there).


If he gets one I should to.



Radium-Game.com wrote:
Target platforms:
Win32, Sega Dreamcast, Xbox, Gamecube, PSP, GP2X, Pocket PC, SymbianOS, Smartphone and Gameboy Advance.


I wouldn't worry about the game claiming to be on it's way for Dreamcast.
ImageImageImage
You got to admit this game does look awesome, it should be released for XBLI a double bill along with "Solar Struggle".

On a serious note the letter was right to address this game as not in any state to be released commercially, I also think Karma Studios is dead cause their website isn't opening.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:35 pm 
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I'M grateful for all Goat Store and other sceners did and do for dreamcast. I wish I could have been more active, though. I guess it's never too late. I wish you the best in your future plans and continued vision in your wounded eye, Dan. ouch.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:11 pm 
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DCDayDreamer wrote:
The way I see it (from my ignorant perspective of course), there is information out there, that information (no matter how sporadic) might possibly be a millstone around the neck for GOAT, and GOAT Store Publishing in particular. Take a look at the Radium site for example, the announcement about the GOAT release is still there.

I'm not trying to say that there's a really great way of dealing with this, but I do think that with some sort of acknowledgment a possible resolution could come about. There really isn't any need to go into personal details as to why a particular game didn't surface, perhaps just a simple 'cancelled' would work, but I'd be more inclined to expand on that a little bit, such as 'cancelled due to unforeseen circumstances' or something along those lines.

First off, for the record I didn't call you ignorant, I called your statement of 'picking something and promoting it' to be ignorant of how much we do promote on a regular basis.

Anyway, with regards to this the problem is that we don't own Radium-Game, and didn't make that announcement. In fact, this is the announcement I was referring to earlier where they announced the game was coming out and then told us they had posted it. We tried getting in contact with them multiple times over this, and got nada about it.

And I do agree with what you're saying about the millstone, I intend on having information on the GSP site that explains what happened to the games that we didn't release so that people know. In relatively general terms, but still something there. It's not like we can hide from it. Although I don't intend to define it much more than that, unless the developer themselves want to. Truthfully, *every* game was canceled due to unforeseen circumstances of one type or another, and the last thing I want to do is announce that a game was canceled "Due to quality concerns" or something like that, and potentially hurt a developer.

I'm okay with discussing Radium openly like this only because of how far both Gary and I feel we were getting taken for a ride there -- and how the release itself was even announced without our knowledge. That's crossing some sort of line, and I feel like if they are saying we're doing it, I can then say the real reason we're not.

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Seriously though, what is important, is the people who believed in GOAT Store Publishing, the ones that expected delivery at some point after the announcements. With no delivery and GOAT being silent for some time, people just lost faith I guess.

No, I totally get this. And, I assume that at one point you believed in our ability to do this too. I'm just as sorry as anyone else that we couldn't. We were silent only because we were in this very weird place of not having much of anything to say -- games were for the most part still being worked on, but we didn't have much interesting to post on them. I didn't want to make a bunch of news posts about the games as they got canceled, and unfortunately due to how everything shook out, we didn't have any real positive news either.

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There's a bit of contradiction here, the open letter from 2008 did have some information in it (albeit a bit random).

The open letter didn't really go down that well, here's a quote from it:

Quote:
The future side of the equation was perhaps the most interesting. In 2006, we announced 12 titles that were in development which we hoped to release within the year. However, despite our optimistic view, the work done by our independent developers is not like a large firm where developers clock in and out for the workday; our independent developers are just that and work, usually at their home, on their own schedule. We do not have any way to ensure that a game is completed or released and external factors in many cases shifted the attention of the developers away from what they had planned.

In other cases, occasionally developers would bring us games that had fatal flaws -- the gameplay was'nt developed well, the game didn't feel 'complete', the controls didn't work -- whatever it was, we decided with our first release that if we didn't have 100% faith in the games we were releasing, we wouldn't publish games just to dupe the public into purchasing a game that wasn't exceptional. Even though this has limited releases, we genuinely believe all of our releases have all been held to a high standard of design and gameplay.

You'll probably take this as an insult again, but here goes anyway.

I really think you shouldn't have worded the letter like that, you clearly lay the blame on the developers for the cancellation of the titles. Whilst it may be true that for certain reasons the developers stopped working on the projects, on the surface you've randomly criticized the games (and the developers themselves). This leads me back to my first reply above about how acknowledgment of the project(s) at GOAT Store Publishing (without any personal details) might work. There is of course two sides to acknowledgment, a cancelled game could be viewed as 'it's probably crap because it didn't get published', but on the other hand it could viewed as 'it must have had something about it or they wouldn't have announced it'.

No, I don't take this as an insult at all. The reason that the letter was worded like this was specifically because of the strange relationship that we suddenly had with Karma Games with the Radium ordeal, after they announced that we were publishing the game themselves (before, I might add, a contract had even been really discussed). They actually had about 10 games they wanted to publish -- but when we brought them the concerns about the game quality, they walked away. I didn't want them to suddenly crop back up and say that we were lying about the development.

In other cases, I saw nearly complete copies of titles, and we came up with a list of little things that weren't quite right, and we sent them back, and the developers basically told us that if we didn't want to publish it as is, they would find someone else. Never in those cases were the things that we found major, but they were issues that the game had that were either serious hindrances to gameplay or were things that brought everything to a halt.

Another example of this that I feel comfortable in talking with is with Inhabitants, we had an issue where if you played the game for more than an hour straight, the tiles would get all garbled. For the longest time, no one could find the issue. S+F originally came to us and just said that they were comfortable being done with it and saying, "Don't play it more than an hour at a time." We weren't. They found and fixed the issue, and everyone was much happier with the results.

I won't deny in any way that the open letter didn't go over as well to the community as we had hoped, but I also never heard from any developers who were working on a title for us that felt that they were slighted by us in it. 90% of the games never got to the point for us to see issues.

Quote:
There is also one thing that I forgot to mention earlier, there are certain circles that go through hell and high water to track down cancelled games (beta versions etc.), although the indie game collectors are fewer, it might be something to think about. I'm not suggesting downloads from GOAT by the way, but if the information is there (game title and developer is enough) it might generate a bit of interest for the site. Who knows?, if a developer suddenly got an email about their game via information from GOAT, it might make the developer's day.

I *do* intend to have the information in the FAQs on the new GOAT Store Publishing site about any and all canceled games, and my intention is to name the title and developer. I also intend to state that these were projects we had been working on, but for whatever reason we do not feel at this time we will be releasing, although that may change.

Quote:
What do I want from you? hmmm, let me see now...

How about a signed copy of Feet of Fury?

I wouldn't have posted about the re-launch of Goat Store Publishing at DCEvo if I didn't accept GOAT (not that DCEvo gets many visitors these days, so don't expect hordes of hits from there).

I don't know how many signed copies I have left ;) Seriously though, I really do appreciate the help and the criticism when it is done in a way like this where I can reply openly to it. It's why I'm here.

I learned a LONG time ago that in business, it is always better to be silent and let other people post things about what you're up to. I'm here because I'm still a fan.

Quote:
I understand where you are coming from with respecting the developers, but the DCASTLE announcement is a part of GOAT Store's history, it certainly wouldn't hurt to drop Heinrich an email to see his opinion on the matter.

Well, perhaps I'll see what I can do in the near future.

Quote:
Well, in a nutshell, the historical facts so far are GOAT pioneered Dreamcast independent commercial games and continued with releases up to 2009.

Yes, although we didn't deliver more often then we did. That's the goal that we're hoping to change in the future.

Quote:
More than one chance?, surely you must realize by now I'm not typing all these replies just to increase my post count.

Maybe it's time I started head-butting the wall here?. :wink:

No, I'm glad you are -- but you had before said you were walking away, and your anger made me believe that it didn't really matter what I said that you were just going to believe that I was a buffoon. I hope you don't -- I don't feel that way about you or anyone else posting in the thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:15 pm 
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cube_b3 wrote:
Radium-Game.com wrote:
Target platforms:
Win32, Sega Dreamcast, Xbox, Gamecube, PSP, GP2X, Pocket PC, SymbianOS, Smartphone and Gameboy Advance.


I wouldn't worry about the game claiming to be on it's way for Dreamcast.
ImageImageImage
You got to admit this game does look awesome, it should be released for XBLI a double bill along with "Solar Struggle".


I'm actually all but certain those are the Dreamcast screenies too.

Quote:
On a serious note the letter was right to address this game as not in any state to be released commercially, I also think Karma Studios is dead cause their website isn't opening.


As far as I know, this is true.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:24 pm 
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goatdan wrote:
No, I'm glad you are -- but you had before said you were walking away, and your anger made me believe that it didn't really matter what I said that you were just going to believe that I was a buffoon. I hope you don't -- I don't feel that way about you or anyone else posting in the thread.


You have to look something like this to qualify as a Buffoon according to my research:
Image

On a more serious note, it would be super if you could a section "About GS" on your website, it would help me expand your article.
I need a primary reference to write on your history of how you are programmers who got screwed with online shopping, also mention the unique 3rd party products you got Jamma, Messiah etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:28 pm 
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goatdan wrote:
DCDayDreamer wrote:
The way I see it (from my ignorant perspective of course)...
First off, for the record I didn't call you ignorant, I called your statement of 'picking something and promoting it' to be ignorant of how much we do promote on a regular basis.

That was just sarcasm Dan.

But ask yourself this - is it ignorance when someone browses the internet for information about Dreamcast independent commercial releases and finds so many inconsistencies?, when your hits see the Goat Store Publishing site has been dead for some time, GOAT Store (along with all their earlier Dreamcast commercial releases) had vanished from Wikipedia, further casual browsing brings up disgruntled comments about GOAT and cancelled games, etc.

Some people would call that ignorance to regular promotion, others would call it a natural conclusion of negligence towards promotion.

Sarcasm aside, my 'ignorant' statement was meant as a slap in the face with regards to how little promotion GOAT has done with GSP on a regular basis. I think GSP should have been a flagship for GOAT from day one, perhaps not the biggest earner, but utilized as a bigger potential. Once again, this will probably come across as an insult, but we're only talking about a commercially dead game console here, so who really gives a shit right?.

Anyway, I've thrown together a page at DCEvo for Irides, it's short, sharp, and straight to the point:

Irides: Master of Blocks

It's nothing special (and it won't get you in any history books), but if there's anything you don't like about the page Dan, just post back.

















Of course if you do post back I'll happily bite your head off again you buffoon :lol: .

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:53 pm 
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DCDayDreamer wrote:
goatdan wrote:
DCDayDreamer wrote:
The way I see it (from my ignorant perspective of course)...
First off, for the record I didn't call you ignorant, I called your statement of 'picking something and promoting it' to be ignorant of how much we do promote on a regular basis.

That was just sarcasm Dan.

But ask yourself this - is it ignorance when someone browses the internet for information about Dreamcast independent commercial releases and finds so many inconsistencies?, when your hits see the Goat Store Publishing site has been dead for some time, GOAT Store (along with all their earlier Dreamcast commercial releases) had vanished from Wikipedia, further casual browsing brings up disgruntled comments about GOAT and cancelled games, etc.

Some people would call that ignorance to regular promotion, others would call it a natural conclusion of negligence towards promotion.

Sarcasm aside, my 'ignorant' statement was meant as a slap in the face with regards to how little promotion GOAT has done with GSP on a regular basis. I think GSP should have been a flagship for GOAT from day one, perhaps not the biggest earner, but utilized as a bigger potential. Once again, this will probably come across as an insult, but we're only talking about a commercially dead game console here, so who really gives a shit right?.

Well... first off, sarcasm comes across poorly online ;) Here's the thing at the end of the day though -- The GOAT Store Publishing site died about three full years after the last released game from us. The Wikipedia stuff vanished much earlier than that, and while I agree that further casual browsing in the last few years brought up disgruntled stuff, without having anything to point to and say, "But look at this!" it makes it hard to continue regular promotion.

Like I said, we do still promote our titles, it's just that I find it really a waste of time to promote them to the same people who both already know about them, and also who have (for the most part) already decided that we were buffoons who couldn't get stuff done. Promoting to this group until the release of Irides: MoB could only re-raise the anger -- 'Yeah, those morons can't publish the new games, but they want me to buy ANOTHER copy of Feet of Fury?!?'

In the past few years though, we've done a ton of promotion of the games at other things to get the word out. We gave away copies of Feet of Fury for different things (generally, en masse with a sticker on them directing people to buy more games at goatstore.com) at the following events:

- 2008 Video Games Live concert
- 2008 Fresh Coast Basketball Tournament
- 2009 Midwest Gaming Classic
- 2010 Big Bang Event

None of these groups are necessarily the 'core' Dreamcast audience, but we really feel like if that audience didn't buy from us already, then they weren't going to suddenly do it because we put out a banner on Feet of Fury or something today. We've picked up a great number of sales from doing these events though, and I feel like it has really spread awareness of the product. As you can tell -- especially the basketball tournament -- these aren't necessarily the crowd you would be thinking we'd be aiming for.

Irides: MoB was the first time we could really target the 'correct' audience with promotions again, and I feel like we didn't do a horrible job with that between the amount of interviews and reviews that the game got, and everything else. I definitely also feel like we didn't do our best job because I was basically incapacitated, but like I said -- Irides: MoB has sold above and beyond our expectations, especially for a game that resembles another (Lumines) so much, and until you play it you can't actually see / feel how much better it plays than that game.

The other problem regarding the whole time thing is just that the MGC has more or less become the flagship thing we do -- not because we don't care about the rest, but just because it takes over so much time. Two announcements that we made this week, we're sponsoring the showing of the 35th Anniversary Restoration of the movie Tommy (the pinball one) and running a tournament there and doing other cool stuff all week. We're also heavily involved in Video Games Live returning to the city, and negotiated best seats in the house, 20% off your tickets, and you can buy your MGC ticket as you order your Video Games Live ticket online in return for promotion from us.

It's unfortunate, but due to the nature of the beast or as you put it, "but we're only talking about a commercially dead game console here, so who really gives a shit right?.", is exactly right when you're going to people to promote something. Ask if they want to do a cross-promotion with the Dreamcast, and people look at you like what the hell are you talking about. As if they want to do a cross-promotion with the Midwest Gaming Classic, and that opens a ton of doors. The Dreamcast stuff we work into the other stuff we do because the MGC opens the doors, unfortunately due to it being a dead console (as is, well, everything we carry) no one cares about that side of it as much as we'd like -- but we work it in.

Quote:
Anyway, I've thrown together a page at DCEvo for Irides, it's short, sharp, and straight to the point:

Irides: Master of Blocks

It's nothing special (and it won't get you in any history books), but if there's anything you don't like about the page Dan, just post back.

















Of course if you do post back I'll happily bite your head off again you buffoon :lol: .


Don't bite my head off, but my son just started crying, so I'll look and return shortly :)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:32 am 
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DCDayDreamer wrote:
Anyway, I've thrown together a page at DCEvo for Irides, it's short, sharp, and straight to the point:

Irides: Master of Blocks

It's nothing special (and it won't get you in any history books), but if there's anything you don't like about the page Dan, just post back.


Very nice! Having a real demo of the actual game would be excellent! (BlockSmash isn't a good indicator of the game's quality I think)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:02 pm 
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Sorry for the slow reply, had a kind of crazy night -- Looks great, thanks a ton! Now I just need to convince someone to do Cool Herders and Maqiupai :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:40 pm 
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I'm pretty sure a demo of Irides would help to convince that someone... :P

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:53 pm 
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DEMO! DEMO!! DEMO!!! DEMO!!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:57 am 
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I'd love it, but I don't think I can just make one appear. We'll see, no promises (since I can't make it happen).

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:22 pm 
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goatdan wrote:
I'd love it, but I don't think I can just make one appear. We'll see, no promises (since I can't make it happen).

On the subject of demos, and whilst researching for a Cool Herders page at DCEvo, some interesting information was unveiled:

2004-05-03: "The Midwest Classic opened today, but I've hardly read anything about it to date. I wonder how Cool Herders is doing."

2004-05-30: "In Cool Herders news, THERE STILL ISN'T ANY. Gah. That's just rude."

2004-06-01: "Got pictures of the Midwest Gaming Classic, after finally posting a whiny post begging for pics at one of the Dreamcast boards"

Not exactly good promotion for an upcoming commercial title is it?.


Now let's jump forward five years:
2009-07-06: "I'm not sure the current status of GOAT Store Publishing, you'd have to check with Gary or Dan"


Of course this all fuels what I (and everyone who bothered reading about GOAT Store Publishing to begin with) already knew, but it would be interesting to see your take on this subject Dan.








DCDayDreamer continues to rattle the cage of GOAT Store Publishing. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:22 pm 
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Piracy was what killed the Dreamcast, and it still after it.

I was speaking to Roel the other day and we were discussing how R4 sales, are we discussed the sales of R4 CD vs R4 Torrents.

You'd think people would be sentimental enough to buy a low priced new Dreamcast game rather than downloading it, man's greed is often underestimated, what's even more underestimated are the number of distribution channels required for a game to sell.

The death of Lik-Sang played a major role in the system's decline, wouldn't you think so?

P.S. the fucking pictures are gone never to be seen by another again viewtopic.php?f=72&t=100377&p=529807#529807

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:47 am 
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cube_b3 wrote:
Piracy was what killed the Dreamcast, and it still after it.

I was speaking to Roel the other day and we were discussing how R4 sales, are we discussed the sales of R4 CD vs R4 Torrents.

You'd think people would be sentimental enough to buy a low priced new Dreamcast game rather than downloading it, man's greed is often underestimated, what's even more underestimated are the number of distribution channels required for a game to sell.

The death of Lik-Sang played a major role in the system's decline, wouldn't you think so?

P.S. the fucking pictures are gone never to be seen by another again viewtopic.php?f=72&t=100377&p=529807#529807

There were many factors that played a part in the death of the console, piracy was not the sole reason the Dreamcast failed commercially.

The pictures were moved to here.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:44 pm 
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I see 5 Dreamcasts, yet I don't want to touch one.
:S That is very anti-climatic, I was expecting MGC to look like this:

ImageImage[img]

Maybe I'm spoiled because of all the pictures i've seen at DCS & RSG but those pictures look very unexciting, I mean I can replicate this setup without leaving my house or spending money. RedSpotGames have never had more than 2 playable Dreamcast's but they carry the official Pal DC display Panel's and they are just so damn irresistible.


Tables = Check
5 DC's = Check
5 Monitor's = Check
Glue Stick = Check
A4 Size papers = Check
color printer= Check

This I can't do:


You don't always have to do a ton of work, you don't have to do a ton of work, you just have to make things look attractive:
ImageImageImage

Maybe it is Max's background as an artist but seeing the pictures, just makes me want to go to his events, seeing MGC reminds me of my room back in 2005 and no one wanted to enter my room, I didn't feel comfortable their as my video games were on my bed, I had to go and sleep in the lounge.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:15 pm 
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I would've been less critical of those MGC pictures if they had custom GSP dreamcast's like this one:
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:22 pm 
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cube_b3 wrote:
seeing MGC reminds me of my room back in 2005 and no one wanted to enter my room

What you have to remember is, the MGC is an event for classic consoles (there's even a pinball machine parade there), the whole thing is entirely for the retro experience, having new or upcoming games for an old console is just an additional novelty at the show.

RSG are attending entirely different events, they are at a modern venue alongside big names in the industry, so they HAVE TO make their booth look more professional.

cube_b3 wrote:
I would've been less critical of those MGC pictures if they had customing GSP dreamcast's like this one

I'm sure that Dan could think up something far more original than that if he thought about it. If Dan really needed a gimmick, he only has to bring along to any event a Goat with a Dreamcast painted on its arse, then stand there handing out controllers to anyone brave enough to plug one in.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:07 pm 
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^ One thing that I immediately noticed is that GOAT hooked all their Dreamcasts to high defintion PC monitors, while redspotgames Dreamcast stands only use old SDTVs. I wish there would have been just one single HDTV with a Dreamcast hooked up via VGA.


And no, piracy didn't kill Dreamcast. Peter Moore did. And Microsoft did because they wanted Sega's games - and Peter Moore. And Sony did. Because PS2 outsold Dreamcast at something like 1.000:1. And everyone thought that Nintendo and Microsoft would repeat this with GameCube and Xbox too, even though as it turned out those barely outsold Dreamcast at all, let alone for the 15 months Dreamcast was available, while Xbox and GameCube were stuffed down our throats for half a decade.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:55 pm 
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Yeah, I noticed the HD Monitors as well but your average Joe will go for presentation any day, let's try and sell a Dreamcast Demo Display Panel (DDDP) and compare it's selling price with a Dreamcast Bundle that includes a VGA box and a PC Monitor.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ULTRA-RARE-SEGA-DRE ... 497wt_1166
Better yet, let's go to a Game Convention set up a Dreamcast with a VGA Box connected to a monitor, and a cross the hall a DDDP, it is obvious the DDDP will attract more players.
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As for the death of the Dreamcast the variables you mentioned exist, although on 9 9 09 Moore retracted his comments about pulling the plug on the Dreamcast and reiterated that it was indeed SOJ.

While all the factors can be argued with, but piracy simply can not as Dreamcast is probably the only console that can play Warez without any hardware modification and you simply can't over look that fact, is piracy 100% responsible for the demise probably not, but does it take the biggest slice, obviously.

Especially in less developed parts of the world, it took a few years to get the PS2 to perfectly play pirate DVD's, I remember the annoying process of booting pirate CD's, required inserting a special memory card, a boot disk and so on... and even then the pirate cd did not have any of the CGI Videos and stuff but Dreamcast on the other hand had Sonic Adventure to Shenmue running in all their GD-Perfect glory on your average CD-R...

Even Harmless Lion says that the torrent count is greater than games sold (but then again the torrents are free).

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