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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Hi there! I’m looking to hire a programmer to port the makaqu quake engine to KGL for a 3D platformer project. I’m paying $200 but price is negotiable. $50 will be paid in advance and $150 when work is complete. It would also be a nice bonus to update the codebase to use the latest version of Kallistios and maybe even a Windows port with OpenGL, but that’s optional. Any engine code will be released to the public. If extra features need to be added after the original port is completed, I’m willing to keep paying per feature. I’m putting up a demo soon to show off what I have so far, but the framerate is way too choppy for a finished project, thus why I need a hardware renderer.

Also willing to hire QuakeC programmers to code in assets, functions, and triggers for cutscenes and model code, as well as put assets into a fgd file for GTKRadiant.

If anyone is interested, please message me.

Edit: please tell me if this is too low of a bounty for the engine code. I’m new to this so I was trying to estimate costs. I wanted to start a kickstarter soon but nothing’s set in stone yet. Is anyone even interested in this?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:47 am 
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Rizzoislandgame wrote:
Edit: please tell me if this is too low of a bounty for the engine code. I’m new to this so I was trying to estimate costs.

I can almost guarantee nobody will do such a job for 200$.
2000-3000$ is maybe, but also very unlikely.

Why? Because dreamcast programming is:
1) total pain in the ass without official tools. KOS is not production ready (and will probably never be) when it comes to advanced 3D (unless you are PH3NOM, TapamN or someone else who is willing to spend years coding everything yourself in SH4 assembly), KGL is rather slow and buggy (and eats about 5mb ram on it's own).
You have no idea how many people tried to make a commercial-quality 3d project for dreamcast without using Sega's SDK. No one succeed.

2) waste of time if you plan to make cash from your games. Customer base is almost nonexistent these days.

Quote:
I wanted to start a kickstarter soon but nothing’s set in stone yet. Is anyone even interested in this?

I think the answer to this is pretty obvious if you take a look at the latest kickstarters for dreamcast-only 3d games (Xenocider, In the Line of Fire).


Also this:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/issues/issue_139/2993-Interview-Cryptic-Allusion-on-Keeping-the-Dream-cast-Alive

tl;dr:
Image

oh, and almost everyone (from remains of dreamcast fanbase) will hate you if you are doing something just for money ("you are not a dreamcast fan! You have no passion!" and so on)


I'm probably a bit too harsh and\or acting like an asshole\crying bitch etc, but I'm just telling the truth everyone seems to reject.


--------------------------------
btw, I'm the one behind this project:
https://www.dreamcast-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=8500

i.e. I have at least some experience, so I know what I'm talking about.
I canceled that project simply because I can't afford working on something like this for free (I live in a "3rd world country" you know)
--------------------------------

But if you really, really want to make something for dreamcast and no one else is offering help, then I'll think about changing my mind and starting all over again (for a decent price that is).


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Those are some great points! I may have not made myself that clear. I'm not just doing this for the money. The game is almost secondary. What I really want is someone who could possibly port the makaqu engine to KGL for a crisper image. I want to release the whole modified makaqu code so that it would make 3D dreamcast development easier, along with a public domain cutscene code for future developers, Quake or Dreamcast. So it's not just about the money. I thought it might be easier to start with the makaqu code since a lot of that stuff is already Dreamcast ready. For the game, I'm going to be releasing it on both Windows and Dreamcast, so hopefully that will recoup at least some of the cost (even still probably not).

I didn't mean the price point as an insult. I'm not trying to be super cheap. This is my first real project I'm working on (which I know is a red flag, but I've already dedicated hundreds of hours into it, and I'm very passionate about it), and I've already got 2 artists on board. If nobody will convert the engine, I'll probably just release the (almost) vanilla makaqu 1.3 version, but I'd rather not with how it currently looks. It's waaaaay to blurry to use at the moment, and if it looked a bit more like GLQuake, that would be much better. The only 2 extra features I want is a bit farther draw distance than GLQuake and even more optional is an alpha texture mode. But that's really it. I plan to release a 2 level demo soon, but that's still a few months away at this point, as I have no QuakeC coder, and the assets are not quite game ready yet.

Again, the game is an added bonus to what I really want. A good quake engine port for the Dreamcast that's not blurry and can run at at least 30-35 FPS. 60 would be better, but that might not be possible with KGL.

If I can't find anyone, I'll try contacting you again to ask if would reconsider, and what you'd like as compensation for your work.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:09 pm 
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111 wrote:
1) total pain in the ass without official tools. KOS is not production ready (and will probably never be) when it comes to advanced 3D (unless you are PH3NOM, TapamN or someone else who is willing to spend years coding everything yourself in SH4 assembly), KGL is rather slow and buggy (and eats about 5mb ram on it's own).
You have no idea how many people tried to make a commercial-quality 3d project for dreamcast without using Sega's SDK. No one succeed.
111 wrote:
i.e. I have at least some experience, so I know what I'm talking about.
I canceled that project simply because I can't afford working on something like this for free (I live in a "3rd world country" you know)
Let me start by saying that I have a lot of experience with KOS, so I know what I'm talking about...

So, let me get this straight... You complain that things are "not production ready", and then you complain about not wanting to do things for free. You do realize that nobody has ever profited directly from KOS. Period. We all that have ever worked on it have done so in our free time because it is something we enjoy doing. I'm sorry that you find KGL to not fit your needs, but PH3NOM didn't get paid to write it at all, nor have I been paid to fix bugs in it or to maintain the rest of KOS.

Personally, I find it a little insulting that you sit and complain about the quality of things that people have made for free and put out there for anyone else to use and improve while simultaneously complaining about not wanting to do things for free yourself. :roll:

Maybe a large part of why there isn't much in the way of 3D homebrew has more to do with the fact that 3D stuff is hard in comparison to 2D stuff? Maybe a lot of it has to do with the fact that people seem to like to complain that our tools aren't up to snuff with Unity or things like that? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that when you're writing code for a platform that is almost 20 years old that you actually have to spend some considerable time doing hand optimizations and other things that people don't want to do because they don't have to on PC to get the results they want?

@Rizzoislandgame: I apologize for dragging your thread off-topic. I hope you find someone to help you out, as I'd love to see your project come to fruition!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:18 pm 
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@Thecrabbyoverlord thanks man! I hope it come to fruition too!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:05 am 
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BlueCrab wrote:
So, let me get this straight... You complain that things are "not production ready", and then you complain about not wanting to do things for free.

not exactly. It's more like "too much work for nothing". And most of that work is "figure out why the hell <X> does not work as it should and how am I supposed to fix that on my own without further hardware reverse-engineering (if it's even fixable at all)". But when it comes to money, such a frustrating experience is more or less worth it in the end IMO.

Quote:
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that when you're writing code for a platform that is almost 20 years old that you actually have to spend some considerable time doing hand optimizations and other things that people don't want to do because they don't have to on PC to get the results they want?

or maybe KGL is just as bad as I'm saying? Even when I strip down all of the game logic (except FPS camera), rendering a part of textured level with vertex colors is still much slower than it should be. FWIW, I actually tried to render my models using Katana's Ninja library and you know what? I got stable 60fps as the result. Too bad I'm not allowed to post things like this here lol
(I'm referring to this: http://dcemulation.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=946651#p946651
in case anyone is curious)
I have had better results with my custom 3d engine though (compared to KGL builds)

---------------------------------------------
I'm well aware that KOS\KGL is not a commercial product and such. Problem is, you keep telling everyone that KOS is superior to official tools, which is just not true at all. I believed that and wasted a lot of time, but at least I know the truth know.

I don't want anyone to repeat my mistakes, so I'll say it again: if you want to make a decent 3d game for dreamcast than use official tools or just forget it.

I have no intention to insult anyone (PH3NOM or any other KOS contributors), but you should not deceive people either.

Quote:
Maybe a large part of why there isn't much in the way of 3D homebrew has more to do with the fact that 3D stuff is hard in comparison to 2D stuff?

no, it's because KOS is a product of reverse-engineering, so it's not surprising if something does not work as expected or just completely broken (modifier volumes was just a tip of the iceberg, unfortunately (the solution that I posted was not really enough, but it works in most situations). I should probably repeat:
Quote:
KOS is not production ready (and will probably never be) when it comes to advanced 3D

it's alright for 2D though.

Also, as far as I know, you have not done any serious 3d work on dreamcast, so how would you know if PVR API is stable and mature enough to be called "superior to official SDK"? You won't, unless you try to make a game yourself.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:50 pm 
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111 wrote:
2) waste of time if you plan to make cash from your games. Customer base is almost nonexistent these days.

[...]

oh, and almost everyone (from remains of dreamcast fanbase) will hate you if you are doing something just for money ("you are not a dreamcast fan! You have no passion!" and so on)


I'm probably a bit too harsh and\or acting like an asshole\crying bitch etc, but I'm just telling the truth everyone seems to reject.


I mean, I'm not saying making a 3D homebrew DC game isn't difficult, because time has shown that it is...

But, the Dreamcast still enjoys regular new releases from the indie community. Maybe these titles are a labor of love, not money; yeah, you'd get a way better return on your time investment working for a more modern platform... but to suggest there isn't money to be made by releasing stuff for the DC is just not true.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:50 am 
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|darc| wrote:
but to suggest there isn't money to be made by releasing stuff for the DC is just not true.

may be it is, but considering all the trouble with releasing something physically (I don't think digital-only is an option for such a niche market), it is definitely not worth it IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:55 am 
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I've read the 111 story and while DC programming is probably not profitable, he sounds a bit butthurt from his experience. I've been deving on the DC on KOS for almost a year now and while some kGL stuff aren't perfect, I've been able to make some decent stuff out of it (2D stuff). I've rendered very basic 3D stuff, so I don't know about that.

Good luck in finding a programmer, I actually looked at Makaqu a bit from your post and I'd be interested in using the engine if it gets refreshed, for a different small project perhaps.

Thinking about it, I'd be down to add another 50$ if the works get done. I know it isn't much, but chipping it might help the pool.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:45 pm 
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It always wandered me why people, instead of picking Unreal Engine or Unity, or some other relevant technology, and making a game for modern smartphones\consoles\PC want to make a game for a dead console, which has died more then 10 years ago.

Pick relevant technology, learn yourself some scripting, make good gameplay and make some great assets, and win the market.

Don't bother yourself. Pick Unity, write a good Game design doc, hire some great artist or buy some good assets, and you're ready to go.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Then, why are you even posting in a Dreamcast programming forum?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 pm 
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lerabot wrote:
Then, why are you even posting in a Dreamcast programming forum?

Smart point! You got my ass :D

I was sitting sick at home, was bored as fuck, and depressed. Decided to check my old interests.

And actually yes, you got my ass. There's something romantic in such things, there's something thart makes feel good and smile because of the sense of nostalgia.

This is not pragmatic by any means, what this guy doing, and for me to post here, but yes, you're absolutely right, this is not the point there.

There's definitely things in life that should be done for joy, not for money.

Actually I can help with porting the engine, I'm bored as fuck.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:43 am 
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Depression can put a black a veil on things we like.
I'm working a on a project on the DC because it's the first thing that got me into hacking/coding when I was 12ish.

Of course I know my audience is limited, but it's such a blast to get with some people to work on a project.

Don't let depression get to you man ;)

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