DC is SO current gen.

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Post by Christuserloeser » Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:32 pm

Wasn't the Saturn even designed to be a 2D machine ?
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Post by Green Ranger » Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:53 pm

Christuserloeser wrote:Wasn't the Saturn even designed to be a 2D machine ?
At first it was, but once they heard of Sony Playstation's 3d capabilities, they quickly integrated 3d features into their system as a means to compete with Sony...or so I've read.
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Post by Nick » Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:55 pm

The Dreamcast has been out of the market for like three years, you can't buy any new games for it (at least here), and no one stocks it. Hell, even EBGames lists it under "classic" systems.

Even omitting graphical/technical capabilities, that's just a fact. It's long gone.

Middle-gen.
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Post by Stormwatch » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:17 pm

The Saturn was always meant as capable of both 2D and 3D, but when Sega learned that Playstation's specs were far beyond theirs, they had to soup it up to make better 3D than first intended (think Model 1 arcade board).
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Post by Juan » Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:24 pm

Dreamcast died before N64 and PSX.
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Post by GyroVorbis » Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:27 pm

Nick wrote:The Dreamcast has been out of the market for like three years, you can't buy any new games for it (at least here), and no one stocks it. Hell, even EBGames lists it under "classic" systems.

Even omitting graphical/technical capabilities, that's just a fact. It's long gone.

Middle-gen.
Oh, okay, so that makes it previous gen? No.
Juan wrote:Dreamcast died before N64 and PSX.
Bull.

I wouldn't have a DC Devver badge and be working on a homebrew right now. This site wouldn't exist. There wouldn't be a gigantic DC homebrew scene that even commercially releases games.

Dear god dude, listen to what you're saying.
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Post by Juan » Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:37 pm

Let me rephrase that:
Dreamcast died * commercially speaking * before N64 and PSX.
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Post by cube_b3 » Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:37 pm

metafox wrote:Dreamcast was released in 1998. Playstation 2 was released in 1999.

If you were to say the Dreamcast was previous generation, Playstation 2 would be previous generation too.

Video game generations go by year and processing power (the general statistics of the hardware, not the quality of the games), not by the amount of time in the market.

Sega was in the video game market for every generation so far:

Generation 1 (the early consoles):
SG-1000/Mark I, SG-1000 II/Mark II

Generation 2 (the 8-bits):
Mark III/Sega Master System

Generation 3 (the 16-bits):
Sega Genesis/MegaDrive

Generation 4 (the 32-bits/64-bits)
Sega Saturn

Generation 5 (the 128-bits [and the end of 'bits' as a marketing technique to describe processing power])
Sega Dreamcast
Christuserloeser wrote:MetaFox said it.

However, dear Nick, it's not exactly fair to compare graphics because the development back in 1998 - 2000 (DC's main commercial life span pretty much ended 2000) was incredibly expensive and today it's a lot easier and -if compared- very very cheap to create a game with much more advanced graphics with an incredible level of details and nice effects.

When the DC was released it was the state of the art system. The most powerful system available, even compared to a PC or the Arcade. Far ahead of its time.
Now you can imagine why devving for it wasn't exactly easy nor cheap and why most Dreamcast games look like N64 or PS1 in 640x480 HiRes. I mean even ShenMue has its origin on the SEGA Saturn!
I think there really doesn't exist a Dreamcast game that uses more than 1 Million polygons per second... out of 5 Millions possible! - and that's with all effects supported by the PowerVR2-DC enabled!

The PlayStation 2 with its 175 Trillion or whatever polygons per second (according to Sony) is pretty much on par with the Dreamcast and you could easily look at one of the current PlayStation 2 games and see what Dreamcast games would look like if the DC production wouldn't have been discontinued that early.
I mean we never saw a second generation of Dreamcast games. All we got were some quickly thrown together, technically at best mediocre start-up games (Sonic Adventure, Sega Rally 2, Virtua Fighter 3 tb, etc, etc), then a wonderful, absolutly breathtaking 1st generation (ShenMue, MSR, Power Stone, etc) and then some below average "Good bye, DC" Model 3 ports (like Daytona USA, Dynamite Cop 2, Fighting Vipers 2 etc.). That's it.

However, that's all "if" and "when" you'd say, but if you compare a early Dreamcast game (say 1999) with a early PS2 game (2000) then you'll still notice how close both systems are technically.

GameCube and xBox are a little more powerful than DC and PS2. Rarely any games show it, I know, but some games definitly do :o
The Burnout series you mentioned surely does! And honestly it would really be a scandal if one today's best looking PS2 games (I'd say the Burnout Revenge PS2 version is in the PS2's Top-3 of the best looking PS2 games) would still look like a Dreamcast game from 1999.

Then again, if you'd have shown any of today's average brandnew PS2/xBox/GC game to a Dreamcast owner back in 1999, he'd have called you a liar and laughed his loungs out on the flour because he'd have expected the games to look a lot better than DC's games and not to be that similar looking.

Anyway, there's still some "if" and "when" to my points so I'll get back to play Dreamcast and continue to be happy with what I got :D
Stormwatch wrote:
Christuserloeser wrote:I think there really exists no Dreamcast game that uses more than 1 Million Polygons per second... Out of 5 Millions possible!
According to developer Melbourne House, Test Drive Le Mans actually displays more than 5 million polygons per second - although Sega promised only 3 million.
Christuserloeser wrote:The PlayStation 2 with its 175 Trillion Polygons per second (according to Sony)
Promised: 66 million polygons per second. Achieved: around 13 million, at most, if you're a hell of a coder. THAT is what makes DC fans so resentful of Sony, they're CHEATERS!
Christuserloeser wrote:some quickly thrown together, technically at best mediocre start-up games (Sonic Adventure)
Hey, back then Sonic Adventure was the best-looking console platformer ever! And keep in mind, awesome-looking Soul Calibur was also an early Dreamcast game.
Very well said Boyez we could convert this into an article for DCS.
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Post by GyroVorbis » Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:11 am

Juan wrote:Let me rephrase that:
Dreamcast died * commercially speaking * before N64 and PSX.
Lemme kick myself in the nuts for stepping all up in your grill, dawg.

My bad.
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Post by Nick » Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:43 am

GyroVorbis wrote:
Nick wrote:The Dreamcast has been out of the market for like three years, you can't buy any new games for it (at least here), and no one stocks it. Hell, even EBGames lists it under "classic" systems.

Even omitting graphical/technical capabilities, that's just a fact. It's long gone.

Middle-gen.
Oh, okay, so that makes it previous gen? No.
You're not refuting any of my points. You're just saying, "no" or "it's not about graphics." So basically, I just provided many points against yours, and all you can think of is "no." If you don't want a discussion, and just want people to agree with you, then don't make this an open question about what we think. Because someone is going to disagree with you.

Best of all *NEWSFLASH* : this is an opinion. A concept that many of the people on this board have a very difficult thing understanding. Probably because they're too busy wanking it to anything that ever [dis]graced the DC.
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Post by GyroVorbis » Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:50 am

Nick wrote:
GyroVorbis wrote:
Nick wrote:The Dreamcast has been out of the market for like three years, you can't buy any new games for it (at least here), and no one stocks it. Hell, even EBGames lists it under "classic" systems.

Even omitting graphical/technical capabilities, that's just a fact. It's long gone.

Middle-gen.
Oh, okay, so that makes it previous gen? No.
You're not refuting any of my points. You're just saying, "no" or "it's not about graphics." So basically, I just provided many points against yours, and all you can think of is "no." If you don't want a discussion, and just want people to agree with you, then don't make this an open question about what we think. Because someone is going to disagree with you.

Best of all *NEWSFLASH* : this is an opinion. A concept that many of the people on this board have a very difficult thing understanding. Probably because they're too busy wanking it to anything that ever [dis]graced the DC.
All that I've seen so far is that
1) Lots of places don't sell it anymore
2) Some newer games look better than 6-year-old DC games

I hardly think that's enough to say the hardware is considered previous generation when there are a billion other points that show it being current-gen.
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Post by Quzar » Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:09 am

GyroVorbis wrote:
Juan wrote:Let me rephrase that:
Dreamcast died * commercially speaking * before N64 and PSX.
Lemme kick myself in the nuts for stepping all up in your grill, dawg.

My bad.
um... i don't remember n64 games still being made after dreamcast games. also, dreamcast games are still coming out in japan etc.
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Post by Skynet » Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:23 am

Stormwatch wrote:Yes, MSR looks great - and it also SOUNDS great, thanks to Richard Jacques.
AHA! THAT explains why some of the music from SonicR reminds me of some of the music from Metropolis Street Racer. This page has some downloads from this guy, and the SonicR song they have listed just makes me think of MSR. This explains it all.

I like the work he did on Headhunter, by the way.
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Post by Gameholic » Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:23 am

I want to say one thing about the fact that the DC died before the PSX/N64.. this is utterly crap!

When the DC was released here in Europe for instance, the line-up of the n64 was very thin. And I know that 100% sure because I was a n64 nuts back in those days.

I keep saying it; DC is current-gen. With the arrival of the Xbox 360, it will be previous gen.
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Post by Quzar » Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:50 am

well, i think it works slightly different, DC was cross-generational. It was meant to compete with, although surpass completely the ps1 and n64 as well as the generation to follow it. Kind of like the TG-16, which fit in with both the 8 and 16 bit eras.
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Post by Segata Sanshiro » Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:32 am

Nick, man........... what is going on with you?????? In every topic that opens in this forum you come and destroy it!!!!!!!!

Every time someone asks about a game, here comes Nick and assures the person that the game is crap!

Every time someone asks about the DC, you come assuring this person the DC is old/dead/previous gen.

When a petition comes..... Nick comes telling it's not worth it!

When someone likes a game and posts here, you come to convince him he is wrong and in reality the game is crap!!!!

Don't get me wrong Nick, i like you, you have gone the extra mile in assuring everything is PERFECT when i have bought games from you, a serious and dedicated guy for sure, but please man, please stop spreading this negativity in every topic available on this forum.

I understand you're kinda tired of the game industry and somewhat frustrated that games are not what they used to be... that the magic is gone (you said it in another topic), i feel the same way, but there are people that discover certain games now or just love them and refuse to let them go.
People come here to discuss the Dreamcast, but mostly they come to share their experiences in various games, to share THE FUN the had (yeah that sounded veery cheesy).
The Dreamcast is DEAD, yes everybody knows that, no need to slam it in everyone's face, but if people come here is because they are still interested in it (else they would stick in the xbox forums), so please don't take away from them this genuine feeling.

This is a Dreamcast forum people love and defend the console (me included), I'm sure that if you go to a NEO-GEO forum, people will say that the NEO is the best system and nobody does 2D like they do... and maybe they'll be right (in a certain way). So please, don't be so negative about the Dreamcast, its not about the generation of the system, the crappiness of certain game, or burnout revenge VS crazy taxi... its about taking the pad in your hand and have fun or inspiration, or plain nostalgia.

No offense :)

btw: sorry for spamming, but i needed to say it
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Post by Eckostyle » Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:31 am

The DC is current gen. It just commercially dead and not as popular as todays big three.
Segata Sanshiro wrote:its not about the generation of the system, the crappiness of certain game, or burnout revenge VS crazy taxi... its about taking the pad in your hand and have fun or inspiration, or plain nostalgia.
And with that, I think this discussion is over.
Last edited by Eckostyle on Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Stormwatch » Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:32 am

Skynet wrote:AHA! THAT explains why some of the music from SonicR reminds me of some of the music from Metropolis Street Racer.
That, and the fact that T. J. Davis sang on both!
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Post by Cid Highwind » Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:17 am

To me the DC is current gen when I take a good look at the games:
- A Multiplayer Online RPG
- Realistic looking racegames: London actually looks like london, not just two landmarks
- Smooth 60fps true 3d fighters
- Full 3d RPG's
- Full 3d adventures (and I can go on like that)

In terms of gaming experience there aren't many things the DC can not provide, it even has a fishing controller with motion sensors :D

All things mentioned above are things I see as current gen. Previous generation didn't have realistic and sharp textures, smooth 3d games, and widespread online gaming.

Sure the graphics and gameplay have been tweaked ever since the DC commercially died, making games play better or look nicer, but it's not like there a revolutionary leap from DC games to the best looking games of today's consoles.
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Post by MetaFox » Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:30 am

Nick wrote:Middle-gen.
The middle of a generation, or "middle-gen", refers to the point towards the middle of a videogame generation when the programmers start getting in touch with the hardware, and making the best out of the games. You can't use the term "middle-gen" for a "video game generation", as the terms aren't compatible.

It's just the way "video game generations" work. 3DO and CD-i are considered 4th generation consoles, Dreamcast is a 5th generation console.
Last edited by MetaFox on Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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