The TV makes all the difference, part 2

General purpose discussion about gaming and emulation.
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The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by DaMadFiddler »

A year or so ago, I started a thread about how I got a free Sony CRT set circa 1992, which I then proceeded to use as a secondary TV for all of our classic consoles. It was the first tube set I'd had since college, and despite being somewhat of a point of "common wisdom" in gaming circles, I was astounded by how much better it made those low-res sources look.

Well, now we got a "new" TV for main home theater setup (including our HD-capable consoles), and it's been a similarly revolutionary experience.

THE WAY IT USED TO BE

For the last eight years, my television has been a Toshiba 51H84. It's a CRT-based rear projection set, widescreen with support for 720p/1080i. One of the reasons I like it is because--unlike flat panels and LCD-based projection sets--standard-definition sources actually look quite good on it. I've also found projection sets to have a more "film-like" quality to the picture, which is nice for watching movies. However, there are a few things that have always bugged me about it:

1. Not enough space. It's friggin' huge, and since Eva and I live in California (and are decidedly Not Rich), we don't tend to live in particularly large apartments. It's got a 51" screen, which is nice... but is also a four-foot-tall floor unit, which makes it very difficult to fit into our small living room.

2. The HDMI doesn't work right. This was one of the first models to include an HDMI port, and Toshiba messed up the HDCP protocol. As a result, it doesn't "handshake" correctly, and the feed from an HDMI source tends to blink briefly every several minutes or so. Not too much of a distraction for video, but it can be a major annoyance for games.

3. No digital tuner. Not *that* big a deal, but since we don't currently have cable, having to rely on a converter box is both clunky and of questionable quality.

4. Minor picture issues. Namely, the downsides of rear projection technology: poor off-angle visibility, poor black levels, and--in the case of this particular set--I suspect that it's not displaying the full 1080i resolution. It'll play back a 1080i source just fine, but several high-res test patterns have led me to suspect the actual output resolution is slightly lower. And the set was released before the introduction of 1080p, so it can't handle that at all.

The HDMI issue (which there is no fix for) combined with our extreme lack of space--which has created problems in getting our living room set up the way we want in our new apartment--finally led us to start searching for a new television. We don't really have the money for a new TV right now, but I have a pretty good idea of what slightly older sets (a) have a good picture and (b) are reliable in the long term. I've been keeping an eye on Craigslist for the last several months hoping to find a good deal on something that will fit our space better, and I finally got lucky.

THE NEW HOTNESS

Ironically, our "new" TV isn't actually any newer than the set it's replacing--they're both from 2004. It's also got a significantly smaller screen, going from 51" on our old set to 34" on the new one. However, the other differences made the trade-off more than worth it:

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What we got is a Sony KD-34XBR960.

It is the single finest CRT television ever made, and still outperforms most modern sets in terms of picture quality. This is what many companies use as their reference set.

And we got it for free.

Someone downtown had recently upgraded to a larger plasma set, and was looking to get rid of his heavy tube television. He was happy to give it away, so long as we could haul it off for him. It may seem ridiculous to get so excited about a move from an 8-year-old 51" TV to an equally old 34" set, but this thing has a picture that is frankly amazing. After getting it home, I stuck Child of Eden in the PS3 to test it, and now all I want to do is sit at home and play video games all day. Perhaps this CNET review can help convey just how incredible everything looks now, even compared to our old set:

http://reviews.cnet.com/direct-view-tvs ... tag=subnav

In short: it's got better blacks and deeper, more accurate colors than any plasma. It's one of only three or four CRT models that actually displays 1080 sources at full resolution, and it's still much better than flat panel sets at handling standard-def. And unlike our old set, it actually fits on a shelf, which makes all the difference in the world in terms of our living room setup. (It also has the added bonus of a digital TV tuner and a--gasp--properly working HDMI port, which may not seem exciting to you but are a major improvement for us).

The PS3 looks incredible, whether it's playing games, playing movies, or even just displaying the menu (the text is also much sharper than it was on the projection set).

The 360 we are babysitting for a friend who moved overseas also looks amazing, hooked up over the component feed.

The Wii, in progressive scan but for obvious reasons not HD, looks at *least* as good as it did on our old set. One noted improvement is that dark sections of games (such as House of the Dead: Overkill) are actually visible now, as very dark colors tended to get lost in "black" on the projection set. For a select few games, we had to turn the brightness way up (which looks kind of bad) on our old set, just to be able to see what was happening.

The Dreamcast has never looked better. The picture is very clearly being unconverted, with a smoother (but NOT blurry) look that seems both crisper and less jaggy, but without the over-sharpening that seems to happen with a lot of upscalers. Also... I don't know what it's doing to accomplish this in a technical sense, but dot crawl is pretty much nonexistent. And that's just with a composite feed; I can't wait to see what it looks like with something higher quality.

Everything older than the Dreamcast is staying hooked up to the standard-def set in the other room, since I've found that systems running at less than 640x480 really need an old-fashioned CRT's scanlines to look different. However, I did hook up the NES and the Genesis (both using composite cables) just to see, and they both look quite good. Not too blocky, not too blurry. However, the NES in particular did seem a little over-sharpened... a problem which I could not seem to eliminate with any amount of tweaking the settings.

I've managed to get it set so that the colors (including grayscale) are are almost dead-on NTSC standard, and I've adjusted it so that there is next to no overscan.

So as ridiculous as this sounds, I'm sold on CRTs all over again, all the way around. Every TV in our house is now a CRT: the HDTV in our home theater, the SDTV in our bedroom, and the antique round-screen set in our kitchen (which is really more a novelty than anything else). I don't think I've ever seen a better picture than on this new set, and it will be sad when it comes time to leave it behind. We're probably going to be in this apartment for the next 2-3 years, and who knows where we'll be going after that... but I doubt we'll want to drag a 200lb television with us. Besides, once we have a bigger place, we'll probably want (and hopefully by that point, be able to afford) to go back to a bigger screen.

For the meantime, though, this thing has left me extremely impressed. It's got me excited about video games all over again, just on the sheer merit of its pretty picture.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go drool over some more games.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by DaMadFiddler »

Random aside:

Despite how much I loved the 6th console generation, and despite the fact that we have pretty much every other system released since the NES, the only 6th-generation console we actually own right now is the Dreamcast. The Wii replaced my GameCube and can play all of its games, the PS3 is an early model with full PS2 compatibility (thus making an actual PS2 unnecessary), and I was never really that interested in the Xbox.

So when it came time to divide systems between the HDTV in the living room and the SDTV in the bedroom, the Dreamcast sort of stood alone, right on the dividing line. Older systems were a no-brainer; they all run at least than standard broadcast resolution, and look like garbage on an HD set. Newer systems obviously should be hooked up in HD. The Dreamcast runs at 640x480, "full" NTSC standard definition (unlike its predecessors) but not HD. The Wii is similar, but at least has component output which results in a cleaner picture.

Ultimately, the Dreamcast ended up on the HD set--partly because it's "just good enough" to look decent there, and partly because--like the Wii (and the GameCube before it)--it is most frequently used for multiplayer and party games.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by Jeeba Jabba »

That's really cool. I don't think it would outperform my TV though. ;)


While on the topic though, since you seem highly informed on the matter, do you know if there are any models in particular considered to be the BEST SDTVs? I'm looking for a new one, since I'm currently afraid the one I have is going to burn down my house if left plugged in.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by DaMadFiddler »

Pretty much any Sony Trinitron from the 1990s. The "Trinitron XBR" models are their top-of-the-line sets (with more features and better filters), so anything from that product line (32" seems to be the sweet spot) should leave you very happy. Models past the millennium mark might offer extra features such as component input, but there have been reports of unreliable power supplies on the later sets. And if you're getting it primarily for gaming, make sure it is NOT an HD set. In addition to the slightly different picture, the HD sets will not work correctly with light guns.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by DaMadFiddler »

One bit of safety advice, though: any CRT set that's 32" or larger is going to be both (a) very heavy and (b) very FRONT-heavy (and thus prone to toppling). There were actually problems with kids and pets getting crushed by television sets that were improperly secured. If you're looking to get a large-ish CRT, be sure to put it on a sturdy piece of furniture (that's NOT on wheels) and to use some sort of safety strap to secure it.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by Christuserloeser »

That Sony KD-34XBR960 sure looks nice but it's a 1080i tube = 540p, so it really only displays 1080i natively, all other HD/ED resolutions will be scaled to 540p. It also lacks a VGA port for Dreamcast and Wii - and Dreamcast only works in "HD" via VGA.

From my personal experience after owning three HD CRTs I would say that even the cheapest LCD you can find in your local supermarket will look MUCH better with HD and ED sources like PS3, 360, Wii and Dreamcast. At the very least that's true with any HD CRT / rear projection TVs I have seen over the years.


My advice for an SDTV:

definitely stick to older 4:3 sets, check for Y'PbPr component ports (as these can be used to hook up RGB sources via an external SCART to component converter - VERY useful for Genesis, SNES, PS1/2, Neo Geo, etc.), avoid EDTV/HDTV CRTs (as these got similar issues with SD sources as flat screen HDTVs)

Personally, I think a 27" - 29" 4:3 tube is the perfect size for a 4:3 SD CRT. I'm using a Sony Trinitron myself, but any mid to late 90s CRT with component-in should be a good choice. I am not a fan of video filters and other crap as I feel these ruin the picture more often than they're doing anything good. So for a CRT you basically plan on using as a monitor for your video games I think the less features the better.

EDIT: for the sake of completeness I should add that a good 4:3 SD CRT should have both component and S-Video ports.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by Jeeba Jabba »

DaMadFiddler wrote:One bit of safety advice, though: any CRT set that's 32" or larger is going to be both (a) very heavy and (b) very FRONT-heavy (and thus prone to toppling). There were actually problems with kids and pets getting crushed by television sets that were improperly secured. If you're looking to get a large-ish CRT, be sure to put it on a sturdy piece of furniture (that's NOT on wheels) and to use some sort of safety strap to secure it.

I was born in 1986... I'm not foreign to CRTs.. :lol: I didn't get my first flat panel until 2008.

But yeah, my dad had a number of Trinitrons in the 90s, and I always loved those. Very reliable.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by Christuserloeser »

DaMadFiddler wrote:The Dreamcast runs at 640x480, "full" NTSC standard definition (unlike its predecessors) but not HD. The Wii is similar, but at least has component output which results in a cleaner picture.


The difference is even finer than you'd think: Wii supports 480p (EDTV) via component. Dreamcast supports 480p via VGA.

While not quite reaching full High Definition specifications, 480p translates to twice the frame rate and twice the vertical resolution in comparison to 480i. In addition the difference in color accuracy from composite or S-Video to VGA could not be any bigger.

On top of that 480p is a fully HDTV compatible signal that unlike 480i does not need to be de-interlaced prior displaying, resulting in a crystal clear picture. I'd say that 480p via VGA is closer to 1080p via HDMI than 480i via composite.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by DaMadFiddler »

Yeah, I'm well aware of the difference between 480i and 480p. I was just trying to explain the logic behind the decision. And the Dreamcast looks surprisingly good on this set, even via composite. It's got a really good picture, with surprisingly effective filters. However, for consoles that aren't even rendering at that resolution (i.e. N64 and below), an HDTV of *any* kind makes them look pretty bad; the Dreamcast seems to be the cutoff point. The TV makes a Dreamcast look better; it makes an N64 (or SNES, or Genesis, or NES) look worse. That's all I was trying to say.

Unfortunately, though, I've never been in a position to see the Dreamcast in its "ideal" form. It's kind of a shame you can't get Y-Pb-Pr component output from it without a bunch of signal conversion. When I first got a DC, the TV I had was composite only. Then I got the projection set, which has two component inputs and an HDMI port, but no VGA/DVI/SCART. The Sony is the same way. Maybe someday I'll have a TV with a VGA or DVI port.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by DanteJay »

DaMadFiddler wrote: Unfortunately, though, I've never been in a position to see the Dreamcast in its "ideal" form. It's kind of a shame you can't get Y-Pb-Pr component output from it without a bunch of signal conversion. When I first got a DC, the TV I had was composite only. Then I got the projection set, which has two component inputs and an HDMI port, but no VGA/DVI/SCART. The Sony is the same way. Maybe someday I'll have a TV with a VGA or DVI port.
It's not uncommon to find an HDTV with a VGA port. My Sammy has one, and my Dreamcast looks great on it.

@Jeeba In my family's experience of 90s model Trinitrons, they were anything but reliable. Best looking TVs around when they worked.

I've got an early 2000s 27" Trinitron now which doesn't get much use anymore, since all my consoles are now connected to my HDTV, but it's been super reliable.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by DaMadFiddler »

I know it's not uncommon, but I've never had one. The only reason we got this TV is because it was free.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by mankrip »

Jeeba Jabba wrote:That's really cool. I don't think it would outperform my TV though. ;)
That one goes for about US$ 1800 around here.

However, what I really liked is the E8000 model. It even has a kind of "Kinect" sensor that can be used instead of a remote.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by DaMadFiddler »

One final update: I've noticed that 480i and 720p sources both seem to get upscaled to 1080i, but 480p is shown natively. A little odd, and it means that the Wii doesn't get treated to the (really quite effective) upscaler. (The rear projection set upscaled everything to 1080i by default, with a "540p" option if you wanted to watch standard-def progressive scan sources in progressive scan. I always left it on the default, as the setting was not source-specific and had to be chosen from deep within the nested menus). The Wii's lower resolution isn't really noticeable unless you're sitting right up close to the television... however, it does mean that Virtual Console games end up looking far too crisp and pixelated, whereas the projection set tended to soften them somewhat.

On the plus side, the Wii still looks a lot better than it does on flat-panel sets. I think the rear projection TV was slightly better for the Wii, though.
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Re: The TV makes all the difference, part 2

Post by Calavera »

I still have 2 CRTs. One is out in my garage hangout area and it is a Mitsubishi 3715C Display Monitor from 1990, it was like $10,000 when it was new. I got it for $50 :lol: It isn't a consumer TV like you couldn't have went to the store and bought it. It is a high end monitor for video editing and stuff like that. It' has got all kind of inputs including s-video which I was surprised to find on a 1990 TV. I don't have a picture of the set handy but I do have a couple picture of the inputs on the back

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I used to play a lot of Dreamcast on it and it looks great. I've even hooked my computer up to it to run some emulators. It's a very nice CRT and it would probably be close to impossible to find another one.



My other CRT is a Panasonic from 2004. It's not HD but it does have component inputs. I mainly use it as a secondary monitor on my PC for watching videos or playing emulators and for playing my original Xbox.
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